helenheven
Friend
Posts: 25
Registered: 22-7-10
Member Is Offline
|
![[*]](./images/xmbforum/default_icon.gif) posted on 22-7-10 at 01:47 PM |
|
|
Identify Parisian beadwork on lamé -Paul Poiret?
I'm trying to learn if this incredible metallic lamé and gold lace blouse I bought is indeed a Paul Poiret. The dealer I bought from said that it was
and the detail & finish work is convincing. I though someone might recognize the style or design of the beadwork. It's my first post so I'll try to
upload photos - if they are inadequate , please let me know and I'll take some more! Thanks in advance!
helenheven has attached this image:
|
|
|
helenheven
Friend
Posts: 25
Registered: 22-7-10
Member Is Offline
|
| posted on 22-7-10 at 02:03 PM |
Reply #: 1 |
|
Another photo - Poiret?
Here's a closer look....
helenheven has attached this image:
|
|
|
Jonathan
Trade Member
Posts: 6972
Registered: 7-9-02
Location: Cambridge, Ontario
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
| posted on 22-7-10 at 02:40 PM |
Reply #: 2 |
|
The use of orientalist inspired colours and exotic motifs fit in with what he was doing. However, the type of beadwork, although it is showy, it is
simplistic workmanship and its not done really well. I also don' t like the fact that the beadwork is cut off at the bottom - that suggests that at
best it has been altered from the original, or at worst it is a machine sewn panel that is cut and sewn to fit the size of the top. It is certainly
inspired by the work of Poiret, but without handling it, or seeing the rest of the garment, its too hard for me to decipher anything further. It could
certainly be an adaptation though.
|
|
|
helenheven
Friend
Posts: 25
Registered: 22-7-10
Member Is Offline
|
| posted on 22-7-10 at 02:55 PM |
Reply #: 3 |
|
Some more info and another photo
Thank you so much for your reply - Please tell me what additional photos I could post that might help you further. The bottom is not actually cut off
- it is turned under and nicely finished and the interior seams of the lamé have a black floral stenciled brocade - only on the inside!There is no
sdditional panel - it is all one piece. The top yoke and sleeves are layers of gold metallic lace with tulle. I'll post another photo of the sleeve
now. Thanks again for any help you can provide!
helenheven has attached this image:
|
|
|
pastperfect2
Trade Member
Posts: 6276
Registered: 6-9-02
Member Is Offline
Mood: delighted to be here
|
| posted on 22-7-10 at 03:43 PM |
Reply #: 4 |
|
I think what Jonathan means it that it was not beaded to shape, or beaded after construction, with the motifs designed to end at the hem, with none
interrupted by the hem fold. This was beaded as fabric, then made up. Therefore the beaded motifs are visually split and broken by the fold of the
hem.
It's lovely, and a very nice piece, but an appraiser is going to have to handle this in person to give you an authoritative answer.
Hollis
|
|
|
Jonathan
Trade Member
Posts: 6972
Registered: 7-9-02
Location: Cambridge, Ontario
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
| posted on 22-7-10 at 05:34 PM |
Reply #: 5 |
|
Thanks Hollis - that is what I meant. Its the difference between French couture and 7th Ave. knock-off.
|
|
|
helenheven
Friend
Posts: 25
Registered: 22-7-10
Member Is Offline
|
| posted on 22-7-10 at 10:36 PM |
Reply #: 6 |
|
I understand - maybe it's a fragment then. It could have originally been a dress that someone tried to abbreviate. Thanks again
|
|
|
CircaVintageClothing
Trade Member
Posts: 3758
Registered: 3-5-05
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Member Is Offline
Mood: Fine and dandy.
|
| posted on 23-7-10 at 01:21 AM |
Reply #: 7 |
|
I agree: I think it was a longer dress that was shortened, perhaps because there was bead loss in the skirt. I've got a couple of '20s dresses that
were cut up and adapted into tops.
I agree with Jonathan that this piece lacks the finesse of Poiret garments, but it's still a lovely example from the time. The beadwork is great.
Nicole
|
|
|
helenheven
Friend
Posts: 25
Registered: 22-7-10
Member Is Offline
|
| posted on 26-7-10 at 01:17 AM |
Reply #: 8 |
|
Thanks for your responses! The quality of the beadwork looks pretty good to my eye - just for fun I'm posting a couple of bad photos of my
full-length beaded Poiret kimono coat. It doesn't have a label either and I had no idea it was an actual Poiret until I saw a photo of the exact coat
in a Poiret book! I then had it authenticated by two curators at the LACMA Costume Department. In light of that story, I was hoping that someone might
have another Poiret book showing a garment with similar beading to the fragment I have posted above. It makes sense that this is a piece salvaged from
a larger garment, and since the dealer I bought it from told me it was a Poiret, I thought I'd put it out there. Thanks again in advance for
everybody's expertise!
helenheven has attached this image:
|
|
|
vintagemerchant
Administrator
Posts: 7810
Registered: 3-2-06
Member Is Offline
Mood: very content.
|
| posted on 26-7-10 at 03:18 AM |
Reply #: 9 |
|
that piece looks incredible!!
Mary
~~~
|
|
|
vertugarde
Friend
Posts: 442
Registered: 20-1-08
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
| posted on 26-7-10 at 05:28 PM |
Reply #: 10 |
|
Lovely to see these two pieces. Thank you.
What is the sizing of the embroidered top? It might be worth looking at the possibility that this was at one time part of a dance costume which could
be a Paul Poiret design. I can see what looks like some deterioration under the arms. Perhaps a combination of more than occasional use and aging
fabric? This may have come from a workshop which was producing costumes for the theatre.
We are very familiar with the iconic images of Paul Poiret's work that it's easy to dismiss other examples of what may be his work. I have never
seen his work close up and only the Poiret experts can authenticate this top.
Back in the day, I went to a sale of Diaghilev, Ballet Russes costumes in Chelsea Town Hall in London. It was quite an extraordinary experience
actually.
|
|
|
joules
Trade Member
Posts: 5451
Registered: 16-4-08
Member Is Online
Mood: Better with Bakelite
|
| posted on 26-7-10 at 07:12 PM |
Reply #: 11 |
|
Whoa! Helen, your Poiret kimono coat is breathtaking. Thank you for sharing these images with us. I hope you'll be able to obtain additional
information about the lovely beaded piece.
vertugarde, that particular sale must have been unforgettable. Like being in a dream or something.
|
|
|
vertugarde
Friend
Posts: 442
Registered: 20-1-08
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
| posted on 26-7-10 at 08:39 PM |
Reply #: 12 |
|
The sale of costumes was in the late 1970's or early 1980's - I can't quite remember. There were racks of costumes which had that patina of age
and some fairly well worn but richly decorated. A number of elderly visitors who had been dancers were moving about the hall and their posture was so
defined that they could only have been dancers by profession. There was a particular atmosphere in that hall that day, some kind of energy, quite
evocative and yes dreamlike is a good way of putting it.
|
|
|
helenheven
Friend
Posts: 25
Registered: 22-7-10
Member Is Offline
|
| posted on 28-7-10 at 08:04 AM |
Reply #: 13 |
|
Hi Vertugarde - Thanks for your response, not only to this post, but for unearthing that obscure Eleanor Roosevelt /Lilly Daché reference to my other
thread! Friend indeed! And now, The Ballet Russe! I must tell you that the very best live performance I ever saw was the Joffrey Ballet's faithful
recreation of 3 Ballet Russe masterpieces with all the original costumes, sets and choreography - I attended both nights! You asked for the
measurements of the beaded piece in question - it measures 23.25" in length from shoulder to hem / 17.5 from side-seam to side-seam across the bottom
/ 16" shoulder seam to shoulder seam / 24.5" sleeve length. There is underarm deterioration as you noticed. I wonder if the scale of the
ornamentation on this piece might be a bit understated for a theatrical costume - other Poiret costumes I have seen are not quite as refined in their
scale, although incredibly beautiful and immaculately executed. Please do let me know if you come across any similar beaded motif in what I suspect
must be a vast library!
Could I impose on your and everyone else's collective expertise once more? I am trying to identify the designer and materials used to ornament this
Edwardian Gown. I am attaching 2 close-ups of the beadwork - can anyone identify what the large amber-colored pieces are made of? Should I start
another thread for this gown? The LACMA curators (who begged me to donate it!) confirmed it was Parisian - perhaps Callot Souers.... I think it looks
like early Poiret, while he was still at the House of Worth. Any ideas? Thanks once again for all your help.
helenheven has attached this image:
|
|
|
Jonathan
Trade Member
Posts: 6972
Registered: 7-9-02
Location: Cambridge, Ontario
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
| posted on 28-7-10 at 11:22 AM |
Reply #: 14 |
|
That beadwork definately looks like Parisian work because it was done to fit, not beaded yardage that was cut and sewn together but rather yardage
that was cut and then beaded. The pastel pink is not typical of Poiret - in fact the pastels are exactly what he is getting away from in favour of
stronger, darker, Orientalist colours. Sugar pink is more typical of designers like Callot Soeurs, although I think of lace more with them than
beadwork. You may never be able to idnetify the designer but you can probably eliminate who it isn't and I think you can safely eliminate Poiret. I
would love to see a full shot of this dress -- I assume its 1912ish?
|
|
|
poppysvintageclothing
Trade Member
Posts: 7371
Registered: 24-10-04
Location: Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: Super Busy
|
| posted on 28-7-10 at 03:29 PM |
Reply #: 15 |
|
I feel rather faint after seeing that coat! Now that is an absolute piece to die for!!! Thank you so much for sharing those photos with us. Have
you ever worn it - just once?
just wanted to add the pretty pink dress is pretty fabulous as well!
|
|
|
vertugarde
Friend
Posts: 442
Registered: 20-1-08
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
| posted on 28-7-10 at 10:15 PM |
Reply #: 16 |
|
I don't have much to add to the first piece except to say that I agree that it may be too subtle to be a theatre costume. I don't suppose you have a
good enough provenance from the dealer you bought it from? I came across this extract from an article in the UK's Telegraph (2007);
"American Vogue’s Hamish Bowles, an avid collector of vintage haute couture, confesses sadly that he does not own a single piece of Poiret and doubts
he has ever come across one.
“Many of his designs were ephemeral. They were genius, breath-taking, but they were not always terribly well made. And many have simply vanished, like
the house itself.”
I look forward to seeing the evening dress if you are able to show it full length. The beaded fabric looks like silk chiffon and the charmeuse or silk
satin. Glass beads and bugles. Are the larger beads glass or celluloid? I can't say whether it looks typically French. This was a a large industry in
France with a huge demand particularly from American women for French couture fashion. It looks like tambour beading is it?
There are a couple of Poiret's dresses that I've seen from around the same period that are in the same colour palette range. Here's one;
http://tinyurl.com/23szy2s
How fabulous to have seen the Joffrey Ballet production!
|
|
|
helenheven
Friend
Posts: 25
Registered: 22-7-10
Member Is Offline
|
| posted on 29-7-10 at 01:34 AM |
Reply #: 17 |
|
Hi, Thanks for the Poiret link - the dress you reference is actually very similar in color to my gown, which although it seems to be showing up as
pink online, is actually gold. I don't have a full length photo yet, but I'm posting a bad picture of the bodice - hopefully the color will be more
true this time. As you can see, there is gorgeous lace involved - and you are correct about the silk chiffon and satin charmeuse. I think the amber
pieces might be celluloid -it's so hard to tell, but they don't appear to be glass. I think it's possible that part of the bead design could be
tambour beading. And yes, the Ballet Russe recreations were unbelievable - they performed The Rite of Spring , Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun, and
Parade, which featured sets and costumes by Jean Cocteau and Pablo Picasso! In response to Mary Jane (your "smilie" made me laugh out loud!) yes I
have worn the Poiret Coat - one New Year's Eve in Tokyo......
helenheven has attached this image:
|
|
|
helenheven
Friend
Posts: 25
Registered: 22-7-10
Member Is Offline
|
| posted on 5-8-10 at 11:39 AM |
Reply #: 18 |
|
Here is a full front & back of this gown - I have started a new thread for this as well - I would be grateful for any help on identifying the
designer! Thanks!
helenheven has attached this image:
|
|
|
