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Because your interest & knowledge is varied....

Discussion in 'PUBLIC Vintage Chatter - Anything and everything' started by cherry-pie-and-roses, Jul 31, 2004.

  1. cherry-pie-and-roses

    cherry-pie-and-roses Registered Guest

    I recommended this site to a regular on eBay's Needle Arts & Vintage Textiles Board. She is reluctant to ask a question for fear that someone might smack her hand because this pertains to a textile, not a garment.

    I think she has already joined the public forum but rather than wait for her to tiptoe fearfully into asking her query, I'll do it for her.

    This thread includes photos of a vintage bell pull, of apparent Asian origin, but she is trying to narrow down the age. And anything else she might garner about it. There is a jewel (semi? other? - too skeered to ask on the jewelry board)....attached at the end.

    Would you who have an interest take a look? It would be most appreciated.


    Oh, and my friend thanks you very kindly too!

  2. artizania

    artizania Alumni +

    What in tarnation has this to do with us here??? I mean - what kind of connection is there between textiles and clothing, huh? huh? :P Where is the scaredy-cat???

    Don't think there is much to be added to the wealth of information already given in that thread, Brenda. I think the silk fabric has been cut down - maybe from a panel or screen - as they would not normally cut through the embroidery in an original piece.
    Very attractive piece nontheless.

    Hopefully Jonathan will be along to given you far more information! :)

    (There now - that wasn't SO bad, was it??? ) :P
  3. misericordia

    misericordia Registered Guest

    All right, all right, here I am! Good Lord, when I read the first sentence in that first response, I almost jumped out of my chair - I guess I AM scared! Silly, I know. I guess I feel a little shy.

    Thanks to CherrypieandRoses, I discovered this great site, and have to admit I did alot of lurking earlier this week when she told me about it, and even joined up. I wasn't seeing too much about anything except clothing, so I chickened out and didn't post.

    So, hello everyone! I'm Dee, and I have an addiction to linens and textiles. I'm trying to learn to differentiate between different types of laces, and am at present am apprenticing (so to speak) with the lovely ladies on Ebay NAVT. What a great group! Sounds like this group is just as wonderful, I look forward to learning more about vintage clothing and accessories, which also interests me. Fashion wise, I sure wish I would have been about 16 in the mid-50s. I just love those dresses and crinolines. Shoe-wise I'd go for the 20s and 30s every time. Did they have "style" or what?

    Okay, back to the bell pull - I think the main thing I am trying to ascertain is what the age of the embroidery might be, and also age of manufacture, based on the glass and metal thingy on the end. And of course anything about it at all that anyone can offer would be very welcome.

    It is just a gorgeous piece. I have great luck determining the type of embroidery, thanks to a poster, and some on opinions on it's age. I haven't had a chance yet to thoroughly read the websites listed in the discussion on the embroidery. I guess I'm looking for a more definitive reply on age, mostly(as definitive as it can get without having it in your hands!). Would love to glean whatever I can.

    Thanks to anyone who offers any input, and I'll try to ask about clothing next time!

  4. alonesolo

    alonesolo Guest

    Well when I looked at the post I looked at the pictures and before reading the answers I knew Chinese and couching. and that was the extent of my knowledge!

    Welcome and glad to see you aren't going to be shy around us!!

    If you are interested I have a great book about textiles and laces embroidery stitches the list goes on, to recommend ( sorry you thought I was going to give it to you didn't you) Its the Complete Guide to Vintage Textiles by Elizabeth Kurella.

    Oh and come ask us a question or questions anytime!!
  5. misericordia

    misericordia Registered Guest

    Hi Pauline - thanks for your input, and the book recommendation. That's on my list of needlework books to buy. I don't mean that specific book, I just wanted to get a good book on embroidery stitches, and if it has laces to boot, well then, it sounds like a book I need in my library!

    I wish I knew how you could tell the difference between Chinese and Japanese needlework. Is it the stitching, or the pattern motif, or both?
    Boy, I sure wish I had started to study all this stuff - say... about 30 years ago. Well, better late than never!
  6. cherry-pie-and-roses

    cherry-pie-and-roses Registered Guest

    Glad you came out of the shadows, Dee. Welcome.;)
  7. Jonathan

    Jonathan VFG Member

    I looked at the pictures and started reading the responses but before I got 'jaded' (lol) I decided to put my two cents in. I am not a CHinese textiles expert by any means but what I do know is that the Chinese never did an embroidery where part of the image was cut off. It was always done pictorially and complete. You won't find a half a flower or half a pagoda along an edge of any hand embroidered Chinese textile, so that leads me to believe that this was cut from a larger panel, probably a wall hanging, bed hanging or wedding screen. The gilded braid surrounding the edge and the way that glass stone is cut at the end are both very typical of the 1920s, which is convenient because there was a huge Chinoiserie movement in the 1920s. CHinese and Japanese items often found their way into Deco interiors (think Chinese Grauman theatre in Hollywood). It was part of the exoticism that was so prevelant during the 1920s Deco movement. So I will confidently say that the bell pull as it exists now is from the 1920s, but the Chinese textile from which it is made is older, how much older I don't know. I can't date Chinese embroideries very well, since they so often use the same types of traditional and auspicious motifs, and the costume worn by the characters are traditional. There is a huge influx of ethnographic Chinese and Japanese textiles from the 1870s and up (that is items made in China and Japan for domestic use but were actively collected by Westerners) through Missions and trade, so the textile is probably at least that old. CHinese textiles come into the west well before that as well, but they are more often made for the Western market and tastes which this embroidery is not -- it is definately a CHinese made textile for CHinese tastes and intended for domestic use. So it's less likely to predate 1870 than it is to post date 1870ish... Hope this helps.
  8. Jonathan

    Jonathan VFG Member

    Okay, so now I have read the other thread... Brenda, you embarrass me! Don't worry, my head is already the largest size there is... can't buy a hat to fit anywhere...
    hcquilts suggested a pair of sleeve bands and that is a really good possibility. If you can see a seam somewhere, then that is very likely. As for tin weighted silk, this one shows wear of the weft threads, but not the warp, so it is possible that the weft thread was weighted, but that the warp wasn't. Its pretty typical wear of satin weave silk.
  9. cherry-pie-and-roses

    cherry-pie-and-roses Registered Guest

    See? I knew you'd have valuable input, Jonathan. So there, Big.
  10. ...and welcome, in general, from the no-antique-Chinese-textiles-knowledge quarters, Dee!

  11. misericordia

    misericordia Registered Guest

    Well thank you, Jonathon! You have been a huge help, putting together the last of the puzzle pieces. Some excellent additional info., and some confirmations all in one. I find it especially interesting that you knew it was for the Chinese, and not the Western market. I will be doing a "seam search" as soon as I have a chance.

    I really appreciate everyone's input, the welcomes above, and the introduction by dear Cherrypie (be good to her, she's a gem!). I Look forward to giving back first chance I get!
  12. Jonathan

    Jonathan VFG Member

    It may be the warp threads btw not the weft, it depends on how the textile was woven.
  13. bartondoll

    bartondoll Guest

    Hi Dee,

    I can't add anything to what has already been posted here or on Ebay
    however I wanted to welcome you!

    There are quite afew of us here that do have a knowledge of textiles and/or lace, so whenever you have a question, please post away. And,
    if you have an answer - post away too! :D

    I also highly recommend Kurella's book - it is fabulous.

  14. misericordia

    misericordia Registered Guest

    Thanks Jonathon, that whole warp weft thing is confusing me on this piece.

    Sue. thanks for the second on the book, I was tottering on the edge of the fence : )

    Well, I managed to blow away my entire I Drive this morning, which had all the pictures I was going to use to list today, so I am scrambling like a maniac to try and retake them all. Talk about stressed out! Not in my recycle bin like they should be, they are just gone, gone, gone! : (

    Will certainly stop back if I get a chance!

  15. alonesolo

    alonesolo Guest

    If you mean the pics with the bell pull those pics are all still on the VCA just go right click and save as in a folder.
  16. misericordia

    misericordia Registered Guest

    Hi Alone - no, it was my entire "I" drive. I lost all the photos I had prepared weeks ahead for doing my ebay listings yesterday, so had to start from scratch. 2nd time it happened, you'd think i'd learn - seems to be a glitch between my HP Scanner and the I drive storage.

    Ah well, got a fair amount done, will get through the pile. Thanks for the suggestion though.
  17. bigchief

    bigchief Alumni

    Hi Dee ~

    Another welcome of the 'general' variety! Good to see you - any friend of Brenda's is a friend of mine :). And I'm glad that Margaret's reverse psychology worked ~ viola! Lurker no more! Now don't be a stranger ~

  18. misericordia

    misericordia Registered Guest

    Hello Carolyn, thank you for the welcome!

    I think all I needed to see was a little humor, so Margaret was like a breath of fresha air. Brenda is the best, speaking of humor!
  19. misericordia

    misericordia Registered Guest

    Alonesolo, just ordered the book - went on Amazon to see what some of the pages look like - looks like a fascinating book! Love the way they have microscopic pictures of different fibers, that really appeals to the "scientist" in me!

    Just wanted to say thanks again!

  20. marlyandmorry

    marlyandmorry Registered Guest

    Well a Happy Welcome to you Dee....

    Sometimes it takes a bit of a push into center stage limelight but once you are there, you will find our audience to be a most welcome one....We don't boo and we don't throw things at ya!!!

    I am going to whiz over to the Textiles board to see what this discussion is all about it....

    I can specifically add that indeed embroidery or anything for that matter in Chinese history is complete. There is no chop-chop so to speak as this is a sign of bad fortune....For example (and this might gross you out but it is true) at any special gathering where there are some 12 courses served, poultry is served in its whole. Yes the body might be chopped into bite size pieces for the sake of serving, but all the body parts are there including the head and feet.

    It may seem like a totally bizarre correlation but it does definitely give you an example of the Chinese thinking.

    Over to look on the other side and hope I can still find the pics there!


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