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Need help identifying top hat label

Discussion in 'PUBLIC Vintage Fashion - Ask Questions Get Answers' started by Tony Davis, Aug 6, 2021.

  1. Tony Davis

    Tony Davis Registered Guest

    Hi

    I’ve just joined the forum as I’m trying to identify the maker of a top hat we own. I attach the label which does not include a maker’s name. Any help will be gratefully accepted.

    Thanks, Tony
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Avantbo

    Avantbo Registered Guest

    Hi Tony,

    Any chance of a more focused image of the logo and a picture of the TH as a whole.
     
  3. GemGem

    GemGem Registered Guest

    Generally speaking the logo/crest having a crown would denote that it was an outfitter by royal appointment.
     
  4. Tony Davis

    Tony Davis Registered Guest

    Thanks for your replies, here are some more photos, including a clearer one of the logo
     

    Attached Files:

  5. Avantbo

    Avantbo Registered Guest

    I agree but usually, if by royal appointment, it would be plastered with a retailer name or the manufacture.

    It is possible the logo means nothing, gives the item an air of--well what ever, manufactures aren't beyond that.

    The hat looks relatively modern going by its condition and looks great.
     
  6. Midge

    Midge Super Moderator Staff Member

    I agree with Avanbo - if it were by royal appointment, it would show the correct coat of arms and reference - this is more a fancy-looking logo. Otherwise, this is unfortunately outside my comfort zone when it comes to dating.
     
  7. Rue_de_la_Paix

    Rue_de_la_Paix VFG Member

    Looks like a great hat. Can you show the entire inside, please? These top hats are notoriousy difficult to date without more information on the maker (and even then). I would place it in the early part of the 20th century, 1900-1920s but cannot say for sure. Made of silk plush, not beaver. If you can determine the size by measuring the inside circumference, that can effect the value. Larger sizes generally fetch higher values.
     
    GemGem likes this.
  8. Can you please show an good shot of the interior. Including the inside hat band.
    This will help with dating. Also, does it have a size or any info under the inside hat band?
     
  9. Avantbo

    Avantbo Registered Guest

    I would have thought style wise, Victorian and I would be wonderfully surprised if the hat saw the 1920s.

    It comes across to me at least a relatively modern reproduction.

    But as you write such things can be notoriously difficult to date.
     
  10. Tony Davis

    Tony Davis Registered Guest

    Here is a photo of the entire inside of the hat. I really appreciate the help you guys are giving.
     

    Attached Files:

  11. Rue_de_la_Paix

    Rue_de_la_Paix VFG Member

    Thanks for the added photos. Definitely not modern nor a reproduction. With that extra wide sweatband, I might even place this pre 1900. Again, these are hard to date as the style changed very little over the decades.
     
  12. Avantbo

    Avantbo Registered Guest

    I agree it's not a reproduction.

    Lets look at the logo, three lions, that's the Emblem of England, it's a Queens Crown, and orb, The Ship, I don't know, Rule Britannia maybe and the Garters, Order of or Silk Wedding Garters?. If the hat is made of plush silk, that fits nicely.

    It's not by Royal appointment, it's more a made up logo.
     
  13. GemGem

    GemGem Registered Guest

    I have recently looked into this as bought three top hats and researched the emblems a little. Hatters were given a little free range when it came to designing their own crest and did not always include a name. It is certainly an older top hat, likely Victorian. The exact height will help with dating.
    https://www.silktophats.eu/coatsofarms.html
     
  14. Avantbo

    Avantbo Registered Guest

    Hi Gem-Gem,

    A little free range by whom?

    Like you I own several hats with these made up emblems, it's just blatant one upmanship from yesterday years, kind of giving the appearance of by royal warrant association.

    However the hat is older then I first thought, I don't think imo it is actually Victorian, although in style possibly, 30s 40s maybe?? so it is almost an antique in any case.:)
     
  15. GemGem

    GemGem Registered Guest

    If you place the ‘royal’ crown in anything, the crown can sue you for misuse. If an emblem has a royal crown it most certainly has been permitted by the crown.
    If you look at the link I posted it explains a great deal about top hats history, a great resource! it is also possible to narrow down the date by the height of the hat, it would be super helpful if we could have that information. It is very unlikely to be any later than the 1910’s. It does look as though the crown is a Prince of Wales crown emblem. That ship on the left usually signifies Manchester. So quite likely the Hatters were based in Manchester in the UK. Quite a lot of decoding can be required but if the research is done the information does seem to be available
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2021
  16. Rue_de_la_Paix

    Rue_de_la_Paix VFG Member

    That is not the case. Using a crown emblem in a hat or garment does not require the permission of the Royal Family (The Crown as you refer to i). A crown is a very common thing to find on top hats of all makers. It is only is one were to use the actual Royal Emblem of The Crown with the lion and other Royal symbols, that you would need permission. It would also be accompanied by wording indicating the maker was appointed or warranted by the Royal Family.

    There were hundreds of hat makers who used a crown symbol, so finding out yours will take a lot of research and even then maybe come up empty handed. But keep trying!

    The hat has all the correct bells and whistles to be Victorian, maybe early Edwardian. It is not from the 1930s or 1940s.

    That website mentioned by GemGem has a couple of errors and misleading statements. It is not a great resource in my educated opinion. But I will not get into that here.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2021
    Midge and GemGem like this.
  17. GemGem

    GemGem Registered Guest

    Apologies, I have edited my post to be clear, I meant one of the ‘royal’ crowns. This one looks to be the prince of Wales crown.
     
  18. Tony Davis

    Tony Davis Registered Guest

    Sorry been off line for a bit. The knowledge on this site is just astounding. Some body asked about the height of the hat. It is 6 inches max ie the brim curve up a little front & back.
     
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  19. GemGem

    GemGem Registered Guest

    Hi, can you measure it is cms from the base to the top, outside and inside? Maybe take a photo? It would help.
     

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