1989(?) Frost Bros full-length fur coat mystery, fur ID & questions?

[mirandatx]

Hi there! I've been researching fur coats trying to figure out what this piece is, but I've come across more questions than answers.

This was one of my grandma's fur coats. My mom said it was purchased in 1989 and is "black sable mink". I told her that sable and mink are both types of fur, and she's now insisting that it's sable... after comparing prices for the two on eBay. I believe the 1989 part at least, the shoulder pads are pretty serious. :P

There are no tags whatsoever besides the "Frost Bros" label. I looked everywhere, but the only thing I found was a hand-written "3500" on the inner back. The lining is attached by 2" cord(?) in two or so spots at the bottom of the coat, so it was easy to get a good look at the underside of the pelts. There's at least one professional repair of the pelt seams that I noticed.

A few newbie questions about fur:
Is this a let-out coat? How do these pelts and stitching look? (I would love to see some pictures of other coat interiors, couldn't find many online!)
Why are there white hairs near the shoulder of the coat?
Do the darkened portions of the skin near the collar and shoulders mean the pelts were dyed? Is that a bad sign?
Where would the size and pelt tags typically be located?
How can you tell if a lining has been altered or replaced?

And now some speculation/fantasy:
Frost Bros closed all of their stores in 1989, so I'd be surprised if my grandma didn't go try to get the best coat she could when they were liquidating. Apparently Frost Bros did use Royal Crown sable for some pieces, but I don't know why any kind of sable would be paired with what seems like a polyester liner. It also doesn't look as fluffy as the pictures of sable I've seen. Legend has it that my grandma kept the receipt, but if it's still around it would take months to find.

Maybe there were tags at one point and my grandmother cut them out. I could see her doing that if it was muskrat. ;)

What do you think?

 

[furwise]

Hi there,

Lots of questions but all good smart questions and I'm happy to answer them for you.

First, the fur type is mink. The assume your grandma told your mom that it was black sable mink. I don't know where the black came in because it's not black however many called mink this sable mink due to the similarity in color.

Is this a let-out coat?

The pelts of this coat are let out. I see a a tiny bit of spacers in between the pelts in parts in part however there are areas where there are none so I would consider this coat to be fully let out.

The term let out refers to how the pelts are crafted. The pelts are cut into strips and then vertically crafted together.

How do these pelts and stitching look?

The pelts look pretty healthy. Signs of healthy pelts are when they are creamy in color and pliable. I can see both in your photos shown.
I do see a small half shaped circle near the hem that looks like it could be some water damage. It's really not a big deal though as I can see.

The craftsman ship of the bonding and sewing look good as well.

(I would love to see some pictures of other coat interiors, couldn't find many online!)

The pelts on your coat shown are female pelts which are said to be smaller and lighter in weight, the fur is said to be shorter, and softer. I have though felt very soft coats made from male mink.

It is a bit late here however tomorrow I will take some photos of some of mink skins and post them for you tomorrow.

Why are there white hairs near the shoulder of the coat?

There's no rhyme or reason for that. Just the natural coloration of the mink. It does not play a part in the identification of or change the value in this case.

Do the darkened portions of the skin near the collar and shoulders mean the pelts were dyed? Is that a bad sign?

No. The darkened areas are from what was used in the bonding process. Your coat shown has not been dyed.

Where would the size and pelt tags typically be located?

Some fur coats have small fabric tags inside on the lining that will have a lettered or numerical size along with the fur type but most do not and the only tagging on the pelts are stamping or writing like the 3500 that you see which probably was an identification number. Occassionally though the fur type is stamped on there.

How can you tell if a lining has been altered or replaced?

Well, I can tell that the lining in this coat was not replaced because all parts match. The little detail inside the neckline area, the inside belt, and the fabric underneath the lining at the hem all match. The color is an indicator too because it looks like it belongs to this coat combined with everything else.

The lining in this coat has what's called an open French hem. This allows you to look in between the lining and the fur side to see the what the pelts look like.

I'll be back tomorrow with photos for you of some mink skin photos.

 

[furwise]

Hi there again,

As promised here are a couple of pelt pictures.

This one is female mink. It can be identified by the V shaped lines and the size of each pelt.

This one is male mink. I wish I had a better example. Male mink does sometimes have lines too however they run vertically without the V. All of my minks are female right now except for this one. The way this was worked it has no lines at all. You can see how much wider the pelts are.
The condition of this one is not as good as the first. You can tell by the yellowish/browning color.

 

[themerchantsofvintage]

Great information, Caryn!

 

[mirandatx]

Wow! Thank you so much for taking the time to provide such wonderful answers, you are amazing! I spent a few days before posting thinking I'd run into a "Google brick wall" and this research has special meaning to me, so I can't even express how much I appreciate this.

Those pictures of male vs female pelts are so interesting. I'd read about the difference but had no idea how to tell them apart. It's smart how the strips are used to smoothly elongate the vertical panels. When I was a kid and my grandma let me try on her coats, I used to think that those minks must have been huge!
The care and precision it must take to work with fur is boggling my mind...

On the "black sable mink" term: that definitely came from my mom. The coat had been sitting in her closet, and she doesn't like fur. She handed it over to me just to get it out of the house. I think "black sable" was used by her as an artistic term to mean "dark and stripey" ;)

I hope these stories might work as thanks, or at least provide a smile.
- After they returned to the States, my grandparents spent half their time on their farm in central TX. No climate was going to stop my grandma from looking like a million bucks. Sometimes when we went to visit, she would crank the air conditioning all the way up and stroll around the farmhouse in one of her beautiful furs - even during the summer! From my grandpa's firm "don't say a word" expression you could tell that this was a regular thing, so we would quietly take turns slipping out into the hundred-degree heat to warm up.

- Any time my grandma was going to be around a large group of people, she would get innn-tense about dressing up. Her goal was to stun the men and outclass the ladies, no matter what the event actually was. (I think of her as my Joan Crawford grandma.) So any time my grandpa had to take his cows to auction, she would start "gearing up for battle" a week in advance. Finally, the day would come, and they would show up separately to the hot and smelly old auction house... him in the pickup with the cow trailer, and her in the powder-blue Cadillac, dressed like a classic movie star, always wearing fine jewelry and fur, heat be darned. I think it was her way of proving she wasn't just some poor small-town farm girl anymore.

 

[mirandatx]

Also, in case this is of any interest to y'all... my mom, hoping it was sable, managed to find the original receipts yesterday! Here are the pictures she texted me, edited a bit for readability and such. So it's lunaraine mink from 1987. It's a long shot, but maybe if someone else ever tries to ID a Frost Bros coat in the future they could be of some help? If nothing else, it's neat to see ephemera from a long-closed store.

FWIW, Furwise, the information you provided means so much more than some numbers on paper do. This way I get to understand why she chose it (as a seamstress and designer, she loved inspecting for quality and doing her own alterations if things weren't up to snuff), not just that it was expensive once. Thank you again and best wishes! <3

 

[furwise]

Great. That is the color I would have guessed that it is; lunaraine.
It was quite a popular color. It still is.

 

[furwise]

I just wanted to come back as I found photos of another coat I had with male mink pelts that show the difference when the lines are present. The female pelt lines have little Vs on within. The male pelt lines do not.

 

[amandainvermont]

Wonderful information Caryn and Miranda - great stories about your grandparents. I (We) would love to see a photo of your grandmother!

 

[furwise]

Wonderful information Caryn and Miranda - great stories about your grandparents. I (We) would love to see a photo of your grandmother!

Thank you ladies.

That you be sooo wonderful. We would love to see if you have a photo.

 

[mirandatx]

Thank you both! My grandma was a real character. Furwise, I'm never going to be able to pass by the furs in thirft/vintage stores again without taking a nice long look. You got me so excited about this, lol Was thinking about it earlier - even though I don't need them, it would be so much fun to give my out-of-state friends fur coats for the winter...

My mom has all of the photo albums tucked away somewhere, so I don't have any pictures of my grandmother all dressed up on-hand, but here's a portrait from when she was young. I think this was taken shortly after her wedding, so mid-1940s? You can tell from her expression that she didn't have three little kids running around yet ;)

The boyfriend and I are actually going to empty out our old storage unit soon, so I'll finally be bringing some of her clothing and accessories to our new home. There are some beautiful beaded tops and other goodies, as well as some pieces she made herself. My mom has even more of my grandma's clothing for me, but I have to help her sell some furniture before we can even get to it. I'll definitely be back to post some pictures in a show and tell thread.

Hope y'all have had a lovely weekend!

 

[furwise]

She is so pretty! She looks like a teenager there herself.

 

[Robin of Frocksley]

This is one of the most entertaining and informative threads I've ever read!

Thanks for sharing the wonderful stories of your grandmother. I'm sure she would be thrilled that her much-loved clothing is now yours and that you care so much for it!

And thank you to Caryn for blowing my mind as usual!!

 

[OZECB]

.. .. and many thanks from a newbie for all that very useful information. ozecb