30s-40s Lanz & Mary Muffet - dating help?

N

noir_boudoir

Registered Guest
OK, I've wielded an iron briefly and ineffectually and here are a couple of dresses to date.

Here's the earlyish Lanz that I thought could be v. late 30s.


<img src="http://gallery.noirboudoir.com/itempics/lanzdress.jpg" width=500>
I gave construction details on the label thread and I'm feeling too lazy to repeat them here - I'll copy and paste later!
<img src="http://archive.noirboudoir.com/researchimages/lanzoriginal.jpg">
<img src="http://gallery.noirboudoir.com/itempics/lanzback.jpg" width=500>

And what I think is a 40s Mary Muffet with the 'limited edition' label. Must be post 1941, and I was thinking wartime mid-40s?

<img src="http://archive.noirboudoir.com/uslabels/marymufltd.jpg" width=500>
Cotton triangular shoulder pads, side hook and eyes, made of a stretchy rayon jersey, with linen brown accents

<img src="http://archive.noirboudoir.com/uslabels/marymufltdback.jpg" width=400>

Now... this needs some more work with, I think, vinegar solution on various parts of the dress. Everything is washable and colourfast, apart from the dratted yellow cloth covering the shoulderpads. The dress has been left damp at some point and has that odour. It's a small size - is it going to be worth it??

Oh, and the label. Tinted yellow by the shoulder-pad dye... :rolleyes:

<img src="http://archive.noirboudoir.com/uslabels/marymuffltded.jpg">

Any suggestions would be welcome!

Thanks!
:)
 
Great dresses!!!!

Wondering about your comment on "this needs some more work with, I think, vinegar solution on various parts of the dress"--
What do you use? And for what type stain/marks on what fabrics???

The mustard is stunning. I certainly agree with your mid 40 age estimate. Looks like a rayon??? Because of the label, style, period, etc.... I say: yes--worth it!!! Looks great already in the photos!
 
Thanks!!

The 'Mustard Muffet' has got got some general, fairly unobtrusive water-stain-like marks caused by dirt from bad storage, I think. I know they're not permanent because they've moved around a bit since I rinsed the dress by part-dunking it!

I'm thinking the vinegar might work since it's worked well on watery stains on artificial or processed textiles for me before. I'm also hoping it will help with the damp storage smell, which I'm finding a bit discouragingly persistent. It's a stretchy rayon jersey fabric that I haven't come across before.

I suspect the shoulder pads may be storing some of that smell, so I'm wondering if it'd be worth replacing them... if with something of a less suitable colour.

I'm puzzled by the Lanz velvet dress. At first I thought it must be 39-ish, but now I just don't know...

L
 
Okay, I see what you mean by the dress looks foreshortened, but the length is original. Any chance that an underlayer has been removed, or maybe a row of the lace at the hem?

Those sleeves do look to be late 30s, but we are dealing with Lanz and a very folksy look. According to their website (And the label resource) the LA branch was opened in the 30s, but Lanz of California, in which clothing was manufactured in the USA, wasn't opened until 1947.

But the label looks most similar to Jonathan's late 30s one.

I have a few ads I'll try to get scanned later today. I fought my way through the dust of house renovations to get my mid-40s Lanz. It is made from the same cotton velveteen, and has the second label on the resource.

The Muffet is cute! 1946ish?

Lizzie
 
Oh Lizzie - heroic deeds of exploration in search of Lanz!

Yes, I did think, since this was very proto-Gothic Lolita, it might have been designed with a contrast white petticoat underneath. I'll try to photograph it with one anyway, as that is how I'll market it. At the bottom of the buttons, there's an opening that only snaps with one fastening, which kind of presupposes something underneath.

The construction is a bit enigmatic, as the buttons look 30s, but could also be 40s, and there's no side entry with snaps or anything.

I've been wondering about whether the lace was added. There were originally two bows, one on each side. Then, whoever, bought another set in a slightly different velvet, moved one original with the other to one sleeve, and added the two new ones in the same position on the other.

The dress has not been rehemmed, but there is about 2 inches spare underneath. I was wondering whether it could have been hemmed short originally for the customer in question at the shop...

hmmmm
 
What does that "LC" stand for on the label? Could it be Lanz of California? My first thought, not having the dress at hand, is that is 1950s. The gathering into the waist sure looks 50s to me. A couple of my Lanz labels in the past actually had dates...very handy!!

YES to the other dress! Great detail! I think I would remove the pads, wash both separately and put the pads back in if they don't seem too bad/smelly.
 
Re: Miss Mustard, Maggie took the words out of my mouth :D ~ remove the shoulder pads from the dress and wash both separately. I think that'd take care of any odor as well as the transient water spots on the dress, and if you're lucky the shoulder pads too - although they could turn into awful sodden lumpish things (!) and stay more or less that way. The dress is wonderful though, and I wouldn't let those shoulder pads drag it down - literally or figuratively.

The Lanz is a puzzle - the dress's details look so much earlier than the label -- ?

Carolyn
 
Thanks M & C on the Muffet - I was gingerly prodding the shoulderpads and looking at where they were fastened, then rather pathetically side-stepping that option. I'll revisit it!

Re: the Lanz - this is getting more and more confusing! Carolyn, you say the dress details look earlier than the label, but if you go check the label resource, you'll find this label has most similarities with the very first one up there; later labels (40s and after) switch to having 'Lanz' in script, the faces change slightly, and the labels become wider.

So if we go with Margaret's suggestion that it could be 50s (and I'm open to all suggestions now...), the dress would look far more modern than the label!

There were a bunch of very girlie fashions c. 1939-40 which featured flounces, gathered full skirts and lots of trim, and that was the date I first tended towards, but as you say, it looks like other things too. Argh!!

ps. the 'LC' might stand for 'Lanz California' which might introduce more confusion, since Lanz themselves say that Lanz California was set up in 1947, even though they had a boutique in Los Angeles from the 30s on.
 
Rrrrrr...Sorry, I didn't pay very close attention to the label graphics, but, quite right, its look is early. Wouldn't it be cool (but how to know?) if this is Lanz of California from the late 30s?
 
I've gone back and re-read that Lanz website history, and something is missing. I mean , really missing. I know it used to tell about how Lanz of Salzburg and Lanz California were 2 entirely different companies, and that the California company was started by a brother or cousin who left the parent firm.

So I've been digging on the trademarks site. I came up with this:

http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=aohav0.2.15

So this WAS used in the US, as early as 1931, but it became the registered trademark of Lanz of California in 1953.

After doing a litle reading and searching, it is obvious that we are basicly talking about 2 different companies. Lanz of Salzburg which is based in Austria is not the same company as Lanz of Salzburg which is today based in San Francisco and is owned by the parent company of Eileen West. I'm sure that these companies have not been the same since 1953.

The company in the USA has been known by various names, including Lanz Originals, Lanz of California, Lanz, Inc. and now, Lanz of Salzburg.

I'm going to do a bit more research, and then add a little of this to the label resource blurb.

Any thoughts?

Lizzie
 
You may have to do a little typing to get to the proper place. Go to "Search Trademarks" then "New User form" then type in LANZ.

The most interesting item is #15, but there is information in most of them.
 
Lizzie,

I need to read through again, and am just searching on the trademark site too, but this seems actually to fit in much better with the kind of 'breakaway' pattern of intercontinental firms of this date.

You know Redfern? Worth? They expanded into US/French/UK markets; Worth in the UK became a separate company, but it <i>was</i> sold off to a member of the same family.

So, it was used in the UK before it became established as the company it became known as later, if that makes sense. Looks like Lanz of California was similar.

What has been confusing us is that smoothed out corporate history which seeks to disguise the fact that todays Lanz of Salzburg is not really the 'original' but a revision of the transplanted outgrowth, right?

Back in a mo.

btw, can you post a link to the lanz of Salzburg site here? When I google it I get a whole load of secondary sites.

L
 
Originally posted by noir_boudoir


What has been confusing us is that smoothed out corporate history which seeks to disguise the fact that todays Lanz of Salzburg is not really the 'original' but a revision of the transplanted outgrowth, right?
Click to expand...

Exactly!
 
And there's the exact label from this dress, registered as 'Lanz Originals, LC' which <i>isn't</i> the same as the later Lanz of California.

But it <i>does</i> have a 50s registration date - 1952-53. Does this mean this dress is 50s??

February 17, 1953
Owner (REGISTRANT) SCHARFF, WERNER G. INDIVIDUAL UNITED STATES 904 SECOND STREET SANTA MONICA CALIFORNIA
(LAST LISTED OWNER) LANZ, INC. CORPORATION BY MERGER WITH CALIFORNIA 8680 HAYDEN PLACE CULVER CITY CALIFORNIA 90232

But... I don't get it. There's no earlier trademark registration than 1952, so something *was* registered before then, but just not on this system?



:puzzled:
 
OK, sorry for the online blithering - the light-bulb is starting to go on...

Going by the Austrian Lanz history, it almost sounds like the US Lanz was virtually a separate company from the point when Josef Lanz actually emigrated mid-30s and set up a new enterprise. It's not even that comparable to early (30s) Bernard Altmann (ie. pre-fleeing-the-Nazis) who only apparently had an export outlet in New York.

<i>Moreover</i> it sounds like Lanz only really started to move into fully exploiting their 'traditional wear' strengths, during and <i>post-</i>war, after the ethnic looks came in, what, v. late 30s and early 40s? So in a way he started out as more of a regular wholesaler, then latched onto a trend that they could really do well.

Does this sound reasonable?

And secondly, am I right to assume now that that trademark registration c. 1952 is only the formality of taking over the old trademarks from the original company, for the new one forming purely on the US side. Right?
 
Okay, let me think about what you've proposed. I have some Lanz ads SOMEWHERE, but it may take a while for me to locate them!

I'm sure it was a separate company after 1953; not sure about the 30s.
 
Well, in different stages really.

1) Lanz just in Salzburg

2) Lanz in Salzburg run by one part of family, Josef Lanz emigrates (doesn't just hop over on a liner a couple of times!) and sets up a new company, registering a parallel trademark, but also calling it 'Lanz Originals, LC'

3) Lanzes still happily sewing dirndls in Salzburg, meanwhile, maybe Josef dies? retires? and his company is merged with US based owners of future Lanz California?

That stage (2) is most interesting, for that's when Josef has, after importing for a while, presumably set up new factories in the US, but is he designing partly in the US? getting sketches or models from Salzburg? And what did the war do to that arrangement?

That's just what I'm trying to get at - I'm just thinking Josef made it semi-detached, so that by the time it was taken over in 1953, it was more of a licensing arrangement than the same company.

Or I might have completely got the wrong end of the stick...

L
 
According to the California Couture, Lanz California was founded by Sepp Lanz in 1947, and was sold by him in 1951. Just thought I'd further confuse things!

Lizzie
 
Argh! Families!!

Just wanted to note, if that 'LC' trademark was first used in the US 1931, it suggests that Lanz exported/licensed(?) clothes to be sold in the US before Josef emigrated to make a go of it - so he already knew he had buyers when he went, perhaps.
 
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