Confirm date on 1930s top coat help

I recently submitted a sport coat with a UGWA label to determine date. RealGoneVintage gave a great tip on how to determine a date range from the UGWA label...
on the upper left-hand side of the label, there should be more information to help you date the jacket. A.F. of L. was added to the labels in 1935. If it reads AFL CIO, it was made after 1955.

In question is a top coat that lacks the A.F. of L. or AFL CIO at the top of the label, which would place the coat in the early to mid 30s. (maybe a bit later if they were using up a stash of labels) according to this.

My dress form doesn't fill out the raglan sleeves very well. Coat has half-belt and turned up cuffs, deep center back vent, large patch flap pockets etc. that I've seen on 30s coats. It also has a "Cravenette" water proofing label, which I found advertised in the 40s. Only reference to "The Kibler Clothes" I could find was from a 1930s archive ad.
Question: I did my research, but am I missing something here or am I correct in the 1930s date?:puzzled:

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That's a great coat, Alice! I love men's overcoats--more than ladies' coats by a long shot. But, afraid I can't help much with the dating. I have a large number of men's coats in stock, but 40s is the earliest I've ever had. The garment workers' label on yours looks different than any I've ever had, though.

Can you read whatever wording is in the small emblem to the bottom right? Most coats from the late 30s on had a "National Recovery Board" label, and there were, it seems, about a million variations of it over the years. But this doesn't look like one--so it could be 30s.

I have a ladies' coat with the "Cravenette" finish, and it's from the 40s--but that doesn't really help narrow the dating down on your coat....
 
Thank you Joules and Anne for taking time to comment. :sunshine: I was not able to increase the emblem to a size that was readable. From what RealGoneVintage said regarding UGWA labels, the A.F. of L. was added to the upper left corner of the label in 1935 and changed to AFL CIO after 1955. I do have several sport coats with the A.F. of L. on the UGWA label, but this is the only piece I've found with a label pre-dating the addition of A.F of L.
 
If you have a decent scanner -try putting the label on it and holding very still while it scans in high res. - I have often found this can make a better photo than I can manage with a camera.
 
Didn't know that! Thanks for the tip Melanie. I am currently in the market for a good scanner that I'm going to use for my art work, now I can use it for my vintage pieces, as well! :USETHUMBUP:
 
Thank you Carrie for looking into this for me. I'm not sure I understand how it was first used in business in 1942.
I read about the "Cravenette" treatment also when I was researching this coat. Here's some interesting things I found...

Pittsburgh Press - Aug 14, 1924
Cravenette Processed" Suits, 14.95 With Two Pairs Of..

All wool materials which have been water-proofed by a patented process. Really splendid suits for general service, the best suit know of, at the price Other lines...
Pittsburgh Press - Mar 6, 1924
Cravenette Processed Suits, 14.95 . These aro a popular lino of waterproofed, materials which will shed a shower of rain. In appearance
Pittsburgh Press - Mar 19, 1926
clothing problem this year by dressing the lad in one of these cravenette Processed Suits for Spring, A special process makes them impervious to the wear and ...
St. Joseph Gazette - May 20, 1923
The Nest Lome' Nation Cravenette Processed . ... is far ahead of any other suit we have ever seei These suits shed showers and look fresh and inviting eve after

with this information along with the UGWA label lacking the A.F. of L. in the upper left corner, I'm still leaning toward 1930s.
 
Maybe the patent preceded the trademark? I can't link to USPTO, but if you do a search for "Cravenette" there, you'll get a result with the wordmark in your label, and it says the mark was first used in 1942.

I did a search at google patents for Cravenette (results below), and it looks like hats and textiles may have been treated with the process prior to outerwear? Also, there was apparently a Cravenette Company:

https://www.google.com/?tbm=pts#hl=...f30267c0f67f03&bpcl=35243188&biw=1366&bih=641
 
Thank you Carrie, I looked through the articles in the link. The only article I found dated 1942 was for a reversible coat where one side was water repellent and the other side for "fair weather". Not sure if this is the article you are referring to?
I know I sound like a broken record, but if this coat is from the 1940s I would think that the UGWA label would have A.F.of L. in the upper left of the label. I have suits with label from the 1940s & 1950s and A.F.of L is quite prominent. However, maybe I've misinterpreted the UGWA label information provided by RealGoneVintage in an earlier thread.
 
I was up looking into the Cravenette process last night, when I couldn't sleep, and was surprised how far back it went, as I was coming up with similar info, back to the 20s. Interesting.

And all the way back to 1905. we have many "Cravenettes"
http://fultonhistory.com/Newspaper ...905-1907/Perry NY Herald 1905-1907 - 0132.pdf

I run into Cravenette labeling with newer vintage items, from time to time.


Let's see if we can summon RealGoneVintage...

What do we know of The Kibler? That brand goes way back too, from the ads I saw.
 
Good idea Joules... will see if Levi has time to take a look. My archive search turned up two 1930s men's clothing ads of interest from regional newspapers. However, both for stores identified as Kibler Clothes rather than The Kibler Co.
Maybe the public library in each town could help.
 
Ah, the dreaded UGWA label. These are hard to date because, unlike ACWA labels, they remained relatively unchanged throughout their lifetime. The reference book I have states there is no clear cut timeline or copyrights to closely date the labels. However, their guideline says that A.F. of L. was probably added after 1935, with the creation of the CIO. AFL CIO was added to the labels after the two merged in 1955. I'm sure there are exceptions, especially if a company had a stockpile of old labels to use up. Also, it is possible that the non-A.F. of L. labels were still produced and used after 1935.

I first became aware of the "Cravenette" process because it was a major selling point of Mallory hats in the 1930's. If you do a Google search for Mallory hats, you'll find several old advertisements. My search of TESS yielded the same results that Carrie got, but I have a hard time trusting the patent office records on this one. On eBay right now there is a brochure from the WWII era that uses the exact same logo on your coat. Companies weren't required to add "Reg. U.S. Pat. Office" to their labels until after they filed for registration.

Both you and I found 1930's newspaper articles that mention the Cravenette process. I found some articles from the early 1900's that mention it and even found a trade & industry publication from 1893 that mentioned the "patented Cravenette process." Puzzled by the mixed the results on this, I decided to seek out the opinion of a trusted ex-dealer of menswear. Here is what he said:

"Coats have always been tricky. I once looked into the Cravenette thing, because I kept seeing it on hats and coats and in old ads, and I had no idea what it was. I know the Cravenette company (UK-based) was formed in 1903 by an existing clothing manufacturer and that they had purchased the process from an individual. I also know that the company patented more than one process for water-proofing (I read somewhere the original used paraffin and naphtha). I'm quite certain they were issued a patent (in the US) for an acid-based process in the 40's. As a matter of fact, I just googled it http://www.freepatentsonline.com/2448247.pdf. So they definitely had a 1948 patent. I can't imagine they didn't patent any older processes. So, now I'm curious--just found this interesting article from 1913 http://books.google.com/books?id=nvNYAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA394&lpg=PA394&dq=cravenette patent&source=bl&ots=E7qcDU_SBA&sig=C64wn6xbQkeW57iBNh3BVZQw72I&hl=en&sa=X&ei=uDt3UMXlOeWciALMt4D4Dg&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=cravenette patent&f=false. It looks like, at least for a time, they were just keeping the original process secret and not patented. It also looks like they had a number of patents from the 1947 to 1972 (the last one being fire-repellent fabric treatment), so my search results don't match your 1942/1956 dates. Anyway, I could see it being 40's."

I'm not a connoisseur of outerwear as I don't usually sell it and most of the coats in my wardrobe are definitively 1950's. A couple of other people thought 1930's, but I don't know if they have an extensive knowledge of outerwear. My initial response was 1930's but it may be newer.

Basically, we're very close to where we started; however, we know more about the Cravenette company. I'm still waiting on some responses and will keep you updated. If I were selling it, I'd say 1940's.
 
Reading through all you have done in researching this coat has left me feeling extremely grateful to you for your generous gift of time. Thank you! Being fairly new to selling vintage clothing, I feel frustrated at times when my research doesn't yield definite timelines. The old saying, "the more I learn, the more I realize there is to know", certainly applies here. It would be wonderful to have a more specific date, but if the coat ends at being listed as 1930s through 1940s, that's fine. I feel the dates will reflect the opinions of some very knowledgeable sellers!
 
This is a lovely coat and I wanted to chime to hopefully clear up the confusion...

First..as mentioned above Cravenette was a chemical PROCESS of water-proofing which means it was patented (you patent the process). What is trademarked by the company here is their logo - the stylized word "Cravenette" which they first started using in 1942. This info comes straight from the company in their filing documents viewable at USPTO.gov. Prior to the Lanham Act of 1946 companies could only trademark the words of their name but could NOT trademark anything distinctive about their name such as stylized writing, pictures, etc. - anything that made it uniquely their own. In this case, if you look at the wording in USPTO.gov, the company filed in 1955 and the mark is described as "5) WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS IN STYLIZED FORM" which means that there is something unique about the mark. When Cravenette Co indicates in their filing certificate that it was first used in commerce in 1942, they are NOT saying that the name Cravenette was first used in commerce in 1942, they are saying 1942 is when they started using this particular stylized script form of their name (or logo) which, to my eye, is what also what appears on your coat.

The important takeaway: Cravenette was a process - it would have been patented. The trademarking was only of the stylized form of their name (their logo) which was first used in commerce, in 1942. Would that all companies would make it so easy and file exact dates for first use of logo and subsequent changes right?

My other thought here...about the union label and the AF of L - CIO dating rule - remember that the company that actually made your coat very well could have had hundreds if not thousands of labels left to use after the UGWA label was possibly changed somewhere around 1935. It is my understanding that they would not have let them go to waste and would have used them all before switching to a new label. We have no idea what their rate of production was like.

I am with realgonevintage and believe your coat is 1940s.

Maureen
 
Maureen, thank you for your detailed summary of information from USPTO.gov. Everything you have covered does point to a 1940s date.
And...
I read through realgonevintage response again after posting my follow-up response and saw that I had initially missed his summary...
If I were selling it, I'd say 1940's

You both have been very generous in sharing valuable information regarding additional ways to research an item's history/date.
1940s it is! Thank you both for all your help.
 
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