Dior dress; the real deal or another disappointment?

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MoreWine

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Hi everyone,

After my recent topic regarding a scam artist on Etsy my paranoia while shopping online has gotten worse. (Some might call it wiseness) Could you kindly help me, please?

There is one dress... A beautiful, my size dress. Usually there is something wrong with it, if it has got my measurements and I like it, in most cases the issue is a price tag.

Anyway, this is pretty even if it wouldn´t have the big label on it; but certainly not worth 600 dollars without it, hence I am asking your opinions. My soft spot is early French designers, usually they cost four figures (the least) so I consider this a "bargain".

Also, as the seller is a website and probably noted one, I am sorry if my lack of knowledge and doubts are inappropriate in this case.

The dress probably has been shortened as the proportions look a bit odd to me. The measurements are 38-32-40 (HOORAY!!!) with 41 inch length.
I ask the seller if the hem as been shortened, but there was no mention of any alterations done.

So do you consider this a good deal, or another disappointment?
Really look forward to your responses.
Thanks so much for your help

Leena
 
Here´s a pic of the label

***Edited by Admin***
Hello--please feel free to post photos when asking questions but first make sure there are no web addresses, websites, watermarks, etc in the photos.

You can resubmit this photo once you crop out the web address.

Thank you.
 
I took the chance and bought a vintage Dior dress on ebay (although it was a smaller gamble than yours money wise), I think its genuine mainly down to the standard of construction which is obviously hard to tell when you're buying it online. All I can say is Holt Renfrew are Canadian and were suppliers of Dior in Canada after the 'new look' of 1947 so that at least matches up.

I'm no expert in dress construction or Dior but hopefully someone here is and like you say, it is a beautiful dress. Good Luck and I hope someone can be of more help than me =)
 
MoreWine, I can't comment on whether the dress is authentic from only two photos but if you have any doubts, I encourage you to investigate the seller and determine whether she knows her stuff. You might like to ask questions about the dress too, and request detailed photos.

I agree that it's quite short for a '50s dress - but then I think it likely dates from the late '50s to early '60s, when skirts got shorter. If I were you, I would want most to determine it's year - if the seller knows the provenance, she might be able to tell you more. The dress value will vary a lot depending on whether it was designed by Dior himself, YSL or Bohan or someone else.

Additionally I would request photos of the details - are the buttonholes bound or stitched? What is the hem like? If she is a reputable (ha! I shudder to use that word now) seller she should be able to tell the difference between an original hem and an altered one, and if she can't a photo will help determine.

MoreWine, I hope your bad experiences do not turn you off vintage. There are many really knowledgeable and trustworthy sellers out there.

Nicole
 
...as an aside, this dress is quite wide around the waist compared to the bust and hip measurements. This suggests two things to me: firstly that it is from the '60s and secondly that the waist may have been taken out. This is of no matter as long as all the measurements fit you, and you're happy to buy an altered garment, but you might like to request that information or photos, as well.

Nicole
 
I apologize in advance if this comes across as admonishing but it is intended to point out what I thought was obvious (and is also in part a response to your other thread about fakes and dealers.) If you don't know what you are buying you are going to be buying a lot of lessons. You can't rely on posting a couple of tiny overexposed pics and hope that someone here can tell you that what you are buying is real. You will need to either buy in person from known, reputable dealers who guarantee their sales, accept that you will be spending money on mistakes and frauds but hope for the best, or educate yourself by looking at real examples and reading books about Dior so you know what the labels mean.

I know what these labels mean and could tell you but I make my living from knowing what the labels mean and telling other people, so I don't want to constantly give away the milk when I have cows for sale! Sorry if this come across harshly, it is only intended to suggest that you will really need to know what you are looking at and stop relying on people you have never met on the internet because you don't know who they are. You can only rely on your own ability to identify what it is you are buying or hire someone who can do it for you. This is how it works in the art and antiques world.
 
About the only other thing I can add to the others is that if you DO buy online, please buy only from sellers who accept returns.... I don't expect sellers to accept returns for any and every reason, but an ethical seller will, at the very least, accept returns for items that have been mistakenly misrepresented. Sellers do make mistakes, too, but good ones make it right without a fight.

If you are thinking of buying an item online and are unsure of its authenticity, you have to ask the seller any and all questions you have, and request additional photos as needed, for you to be more certain. An honest seller will be responsive. If you do buy something and have doubts once it's in your hands, you have an obligation to act with haste in advising the seller there is a problem, determining if there is or isn't one, documenting everything, and getting resolution as quickly as possible.

As Jonathan says, you have to do as much research as you can on your own so that you are more certain of what you buy. If you're going to collect early French designers, you yourself must become an expert in them--labels, workmanship, dating, etc. We have a lot of resources on this site, but for your passion, you should be buying every book you can get your hands on that relates to it, and viewing as many pieces in person as you can. People here are generally glad to help with specific questions on specific items when you are unsure of a specific "thing." But it's too difficult for most of us to determine whether that dress is a Dior from those photos. (And people like me, who aren't experts in Dior, probably can't help at all!)

In the end, you need to be able to rely on yourself!
 
I am sorry I posted over exposed photos, didn´t mean to offend anyone. What I meant that does anyone know the reputation of this seller, which shows in the (over exposed) photos.

Umm I hate to defend myself, but right now I feel the obligation to do so. Jonathan, based on my few posts you don´t know anything about me or my expertise do you? Or maybe you just wanted to show off with your expertise; that tells a lot more about you than my "lack of knowledge".

First of all, I live in a country of 6 million people in Northern Europe, where there is absolutely no vintage what so ever (except in three stores, which one belongs to me) unless you count 80s as well. I am pretty sure no Dior has ever crossed our border in the original form in the 50s-60s. Obviously we have some Dior copies, as well as other fashion houses, but very few I believe, as my country was extremely poor post-WW2 and majority of people lived in the country side and milked cows.
We didn´t have fancy department stores carrying foreign couture, if you were rich and a socialite you bespoke your clothes from a fine couturier, who stole the models from Paris fashion shows. So when it comes to 50s-60s Dior labels, yes, I haven´t seen many of them in real life as most Diors I have seen were in some kind of exhibition.

What I am saying is that here where I live, the only possible place to buy real couture items is online from the US, or book flights to London or Paris. I have contacted all my usual agents both in France and UK and they don´t have anything I like in my size at the moment. So when I saw this particular dress, and I liked it right away I thought to ask for help here. Which apparently, annoyed someone big time, which I am sorry for!

I tried to point out, that gaining expertise is harder in some places than others. I checked the interior structure from the photos and they look right. But hey, what would I know, I am just 24 years.
 
I would take the advice to stop buying until you do more research. From your pictures we can easily make mistakes.

Keep to buying non designer stuff you like. Buy from a reputable dealer on the couture stuff...


It's not an attack just advice.... We all have been where you have....
 
I don't think anybody realized you were asking about the seller.... I can't make out the name, myself. Really, as Chris says, nobody's trying to attack you. We all need to learn, and all of us continue to learn as we go. It's just that perhaps you need to re-think your buying habits for a bit till you are more comfortable with pieces like this.

I don't have access where I live to big designer names myself (I've had exactly one early Dior piece), so I generally don't buy them unless I get a bargain. Then it doesn't matter to me whether or not they are authentic.
 
MoreWine, as you know, the VFG is a volunteer organisation where experts from around the world can provide free advice to interested parties. Please play nice, and treat us all with respect - you're right, we don't know anything about you and the advice was offered in good faith.

I concur with Anne and Chris that it's hard to invest in couture without a good knowledge of it - and I agree that it would be wise to reconsider your investments until you are more confident of your knowledge. We've all learnt the hard way about vintage, and made many mistakes along the way. Couture is a costly business, and even though I've personally been collecting and reconstructing for thirty years, my knowledge of couture is good enough to tell me if something is quality but not if it is necessarily an authentic designer piece. And that is when I am holding the piece in my hand. This information is hard won and very valuable, as Jonathan has illustrated.

A fellow vintage trader once called me, quite upset because she thought she had just sold an authentic vintage Chanel handbag for a fake Chanel price. She didn't get much sympathy from me, I'm afraid - I just told her that as a professional vintage dealer it was her responsibility to ensure that she knew what she was selling and was pricing it appropriately - otherwise it would be to her detriment. I have a policy of not selling anything if I'm unsure of what it is and what is the value.

Regarding the reputation of a particular seller, please know that it is inappropriate to ask a professional organisation like the VFG about the reputation of a particular non-VFG seller, and do not be offended if we decline to do so.

Nicole
 
I had considered offering to look at some photos of the seams, hems, waist, etc. These are the items which I check first to determine whether it's couture construction.

Even though I haven't ruled that out because it might be helpful to VFG members as well. In the end, I suggest that you read my book Couture Sewing Techniques--either the original or the new revision--because you'll learn much more from it. I think it's available as an ebook.

I dislike self-promotion, but, if you're really interested in what makes couture construction, this is a good place to begin.

Unfortunately, very few dealers recognize haute couture; the exceptions are VFG members. This group has completed changed and raised my opinion of vintage dealers, but they represent a small handful of merchants; and they have broaden my knowledge of vintage. Claire
 
Then it doesn't matter to me whether or not they are authentic.
Click to expand...

Oh, dear, it just occurred to me I should clarify my statement....

If I were to buy for myself a piece represented as a designer piece and it turned out not to be, I don't care at all, since I would not have paid very much for it and would have bought it because I liked it, not because of the label.

If I buy such an item for resale and it turns out not to be as represented, I would NOT, in turn, continue to represent it as such. I would still re-sell, but would tell the truth about it.... I have a dress that has a Ceil Chapman label in it, but I am 99.99% sure it's not a Ceil. It also has a severe flaw in it, which was not disclosed. I can fix the dress, which I haven't done yet, but you can be sure that before I re-sell it, I will first verify that it's not a Ceil (who knows? I could be wrong), sell it as a non-designer piece and disclose that it's been hemmed to remove a hole in the skirt!
 
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