Ethical question about offering unasked-for advice

TinTrunk

TinTrunk

Registered Guest
I've just seen an item that I know for a fact is wrongly dated on Etsy's front page. Its dated at least 40 years older than it actually is and its really bugging me!

It crossed my mind to send the seller a very polite convo letting them know about it, but then he/she appears to be a high-end vintage seller and might not take kindly to being corrected by some smarty-pants nobody, especially since he/she didn't ask for advice! :)

I'm sure they are not a VFG member because there's no mention of it in the shop. But I'll be discreet about the name because it may be an honest mistake and I don't want to be unfair or critical.

Would you do it? Or would you just move on and forget it?

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.

Sarah
 
I've just done that thanks to your advice, Joules, although I doubt Etsy will take it seriously! Its not a major no-no, but it is a misrepresentation of something that would seriously affect its value (and the price is disproprotionately high for what it actually is). I'd hate to think of someone being mislead into paying that price.

Can I U2U you about it, so you can see what you think?

Sarah
 
Sarah,

I think you were right to point this out and seek advice on here. I too have a point that I have been long thinking about, but will not name any websites on here.

I regularly look at vintage websites and find that most are really good, however, there are two owned by well known dealers that claim to hand pick their vintage pieces. However, looking on one recently I noted that a dress had sold for X on ebay, and then the dealer had put it on their websites at 10 x the cost of what they paid for it. I was in total disbelief, some poor customer could purchase that dress at the asking price - if only they knew it was sniped of e-bay for a tenth of the price. Where are the ethics in this. There are so many truely talented and honest vintage clothes dealers out there, that when I see examples of this, it just makes it hard work for the good ones out there.

I have no problem with dealers buying off e-bay and selling on at a profit, but to purchase one month and then put it on their website the next at up to 10 times it's true value, in my opinion is day light robery.

However, I am glad to see that the public are becoming more aware of the "true" prices of vintage clothing. The public are not going to pay £100s for vintage pieces of dealer websites, when quite frankly they can go to markets and / or purchase off ebay for realistic prices. The success of any vintage clothing dealer now relies not only on their ability and talent to pick true vintage pieces, know their fabrics, labels and dates, but to also realistically price their garments, if not they just end up selling on ebay anyway.
 
This problem has been rampant on eBay forever. I can't tell y'all how many times I've reported a listing there for (ex) 40's items that are clearly NOT - like a St. John's Bay dress or sweater.

I'm sad to hear it's run over into etsy now, too.

As to selling a a large profit, well... I have mixed feelings about that.

If I find a good vintage dress at a thrift, on eBay or at an estate sale & I'm able to get it for reeeeally cheap - let's say $10.00US, what is wrong with listing it or selling it for $100.00US or more?

In my opinion, the "true value" is really set by the <U>buyers</U>. There are some who will pay tons of cash for a specific item and others who won't or can't. I think the buyers set the price in the end.
 
OK, my position is that if you find a piece at a low price that is undervalued by the seller - fair play, they get the price they wanted and you (with your hard-gained experience and knowledge) get a piece that you know is probably worth more than they knew to charge.

I reckon its everyone's responsibility to do their research before they list, and if they don't know about it, they should have done some more research!

Eek, that probably sounds very cynical! :BAGUSE:

But to list something for sale at a higher value than it actually is, and possibly with a wildly inaccurate date - that's not fair play.

It takes advantage of people who might love vintage gear, but aren't that well informed about it.

EDIT: that's the problem I had with the seller I was referring to in the original post.

Sarah
 
Value is determined by the person who wears the item. I have some gorgeous vintage wear that I paid top dollar for and I value it highly. My best friend has no interest in vintage clothing and she sees it as "old clothes" and wouldn't pay a dime for it. Therefor the value is determined by the wearer.

Also, when trends and styles change, an item may become more popular and more desired and thus worth more.

The buyer should determine how they value an item that they will purchase and then make the decision on whether they value the item highly enough to pay the asked price for it, what ever it may be.
 
I agree about the fair play. Sometimes one seller may have additional knowledge about the item, might be able to present it in a more flattering way (it might not be about display but better photography equipment), etc. They may also have worked hard to develop a clientele that appreciates their knowledge and customer service, or maybe they promote locally. If they can get the price, more power too them. Sales are a good portion of marketing. Its not robbery if the buyer is willing to pay it. If we were talking about staples like milk and bread, that would be different.

Anyway, I do believe Etsy took a laissez faire approach to the dating question. As long as it is 20 years or older, they are not going to pull it.

My feelings are mixed on alerting the seller. I think that everyone starts off somewhere. If someone is big volume it may be about business savvy and having extra hands to help rather than vintage knowledge. I would say if you have documentation to prove the piece is newer then i would say go for it, esp if you have a prior relationship or know a friend of a friend.. Say "hey, I was browsing etsy and found that your dress is in an ad I have from 1972. i thought you might like seeing it". If they get the hint, then great, but if not, you haven't caused a war. But for me, it depends. In some cases I would move on.
 
I've got to bail out right now, because its getting late here, but thanks to Charly81, Leisa and Amber for bringing up some great points.

I'll catch up tomorrow, but my original point was a worry that someone had billed an item as dating forty years older than it actually was.

I don't care how you slice it, that just doesn't seem right to me. And if someone buys it, they're buying something that isn't what it is claimed to be.

Goodnight! Sarah :christmas3:
 
In my email above I was addressing the whole buy it low and sell it high discussion. I think when it comes to the inintial posting that the right thing was done. Some sellers get very grouchy when you inform them of such things, even if you are right. It is better to handle it anonomously if you are in question. Flagging it was a good decision if one does not wish to get personal with the offender.

Bottom line, no one should EVER knowingly insinuate that something is something that it is not. It is dishonest. Ususally with sellers that do this type of thing on purpose, you will find multiple examples of the same thing within their store.
etsy seems to be getting rampant with them lately which is unfortunate. If this is the only example of this kind of dating issue in their store it could be an honest mistake. Either way, Etsy will likely gently correct them. If not, and you see no change and the item remains, you might contact the seller and approach it in the most non-threatening way possible. Read and re-read your email before sending. I have done this type of thing in the past and it can go either way. It all depends on the seller and what kind of day they are having, LOL!
 
Sorry Patentleathershoes - you must have been posting the same time as I was!

But to address your point: there's no way you can disguise an item that was made forty years later than the claimed date, especially if it has obvious stylistic attributes of its own age. Even great photographic skills can hide that!

I'm afraid I can't be more specific without calling out, so I won't!

Sarah
 
Cheers Amber,

You're absolutely right. I've flagged the item, but I've got to say that what I saw some of their stock (only the first page I have to admit) it was correctly dated.

I think I'll just let it pass, but I just felt bad if someone bought something thinking it was 1920s when in fact it was obviously 1960s - and paid that extra price for it as well.

I really have to go now - its way past my dinner time!

Sarah
 
It is a tough call isn't it?? I almost did the same last night when I spotted a mouton coat described as faux, perfect for the vegan! Just imagine the shock to the vegan who realizes that they are wearing a sheep!!
 
I used to contact sellers on ebay when the clothing dates were inaccurate and quickly found that almost never was my input appreciated! So now I just "tsk tsk" to myself and leave them to it. It pains me though - I hate to think that a buyer pays a fair price for something that is misrepresented.

The only thing I can do is educate people - and to do my best to ensure that all my stock is correctly dated. For example, I currently have a '50s style dress made from a '50s floral silk fabric but the construction indicates that it originated in the early 1970s - so that is how I've dated it (and indicated the vintage fabric).

As to education, that's why I wrote my book "Love Vintage". There really is no excuse for mixing up a '40s dress with an '80s one but ebay and etsy are awash with inaccurate dates - if I wanted to contact every seller I'd be busy night and day. The vintage shoe categories are particularly prone - at one stage I searched over 200 listings for 1920s shoes on ebay and over 90% were not of that era - most were modern repro styles.

Nicole
 
bonton - eek, now that is seriously problematic! That dealer runs the risk of traumatising their buyer, and that can't be good for business!

Nicole - thanks for those wise words! I've resolved to bite my tongue in future, and to report it if other channels such as flagging are available. Nobody likes a know-it-all! :lol:

I've got to return to charly81's point again because its troubling me. There's no set profit margin or markup on vintage, as there usually is on new retail.

Sometimes dealers will pay quite high prices for items knowing that they won't be able to charge much on top of that, but they do it to maintain the selection and quality of their stock. And if they get the chance to set a bigger markup on other garments then that helps make up for that lower margin.

I don't see anything wrong in charging ten times what you originally paid if you know the approximate current market value. And of course, it doesn't guarantee that it will sell at that price anyway! As Amber says, its the buyers that determine the prices.

Sarah
 
Reselling at a higher price is the name of the game. Everyone sources inventory at a lower price. I'd have to say that (in my opinion) the market is healthier because of high-end vintage stores which sell their inventory at prices which more than double of street prices.

My experience is like Nicole's, the website's admin and the sellers themselves do nothing to correct their mistakes. It's amazing what people will sometimes pay for a misrepresented item.

Ps: Nicole: I'm finally buying your book today!
 
The same thing is happening in my other collecting area - vintage Barbie dolls. How many played-with dolls that are not older than 15-20 years are being sold as "very old Barbie doll" or "Barbie from 1966", just because that's the patent date on their back... There I can only say, lets hope the buyers are more clever and know their stuff. But then, these dolls are usually not being offered for a lot of money.

However, there have been cases of sellers trying to sell a reproduction of a vintage doll as vintage at very high prices, maybe with their hair a bit mussed up and some unclear photos. I mean it was absolutely clear that someone was just trying to make a lot of money and probably targeting novice collectors who would overlook the warning signs. I don't buy vintage dolls via internet as a rule, I want to have them in my hands and judge myself if I'm ok with their possible flaws or not, but the few times that I have encountered such false auctions, I reported the seller to ebay. There's no use in contacting the seller directly, as experience has shown.

Karin
 
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