Hi, Can you please help me with dating and dress type?(Cheongsam Update)

MyVintageCocktail

VFG Member
Hi Caryn, this is an interesting outfit. The dress is in the style of a Chinese cheongsam, which has been around forever, but I've personally never seen one in this type of fabric (which isn't saying much, since I've only owned a couple of them). And the jacket looks like a bolero, which seems an unusual style for a cheongsam. The sleeves on it don't seem in the same vein as the dress. I "think" some of these dresses did have jackets but I think they would have been styled more like a mandarin jacket.

I'm guessing it's a home- or custom-tailored ensemble, perhaps from two different patterns? I don't really know--hopefully someone who knows more about this style can shed more light!
 
Its difficult to tell without handling it. It looks like a 1930s European velvet and the dress style is a Cheong Sam which developed during the 1920s/30s in Hong Kong, but could also be found in other port cities like Shanghai. THe bolero is not usual, but if the dress was made for a European woman in SHanghai or by a CHinese seamstress in San Francisco, for example, it could be more heavily influenced by the cross-cultural CHinese/European styling.

If it is a prewar CHeong Sam, you have something that is quite rare. The heyday of Cheong Sams is from the postwar 40s to the early 60s, when they were usually made from Chinese brocade satin and bear Hong Kong manufacturer's names, and were exported around the world. However, this textile isn't right for that period. It might be a 1990s dress made from retro-style velvet, but I would expect to see a label, a zipper closure, and I shouldn't think the standing collar would be stiffened with something papery.
 
I can't see how it's constructed but I think it's fairly recent (mid-late 90s), the pattern appropriated from eras bygone. Hard to see the seems and all. I love that burn out velvet though.
 
Bycin, The design has been around for a long time and upon first glance I thought it was more modern too but upon closer inspection seeing the stitching, the feel of the velvet, the stiff collar, the snapping closures on the shoulder/side, the fabric, and the small size of the armholes made me think it was older with better construction, quality, and finer detail than garments made in the 90s.

What is it that makes you think it is mid to late 90s Bycin?

Do any of you know if there anyone that I can take this to locally who may be able to tell for certain.

Thank you, Caryn
 
I think you are a right to take it to someone who can handle it. It's a bit confusing . The construction is certainly top quality and a type of work I would associate with an older, possibly pre-war garment. But the popularity of burnout velvets in the 1990s, and the atypical use of it for a cheong sam does muddy the waters. If you have a local museum with a textile curator, or in this case, a Chinese cultural association with older members, they may be able to help.

Hollis
 
Sure. I know that the design's been around for a long time. I've seen it for years. Lovely style and very flattering on all types of bods.

I remember seeing lots of this style remade over the years, into the fabric of the day. The velvet version I saw a lot of in the late 1990s. They were selling them in a department store in NYC called Pearl River.

The snaps are kind of standard in that design, no matter the era, as it keeps the dress fastening nicely against the bod, just so. When I sewed in the 70s, we used it! It was fun to construct a dress using it. I made a beach cover up using that technique. Terrycloth and heavy-duty snaps.

All that aside... The additional photos help a bit more but I'm still on the fence. I'm sorry. It's that the lining might be silk but not something I can see fully. I do think there are contemporary explanations for the collar being stiff, the snaps, no zipper... but that lining...that's what holds ME up.

Good mystery!
 
Caryn -

Absolutely beautiful! I agree with you that it's older. The workmanship is wonderful - and your photos are terrific! There are several very similar style dresses - called qi pao in "Shanghai Girls Gets All Dressed Up" by Beverly Jackson - although they seem longer - how long is your dress? My guess is 1930's.

Where do you live? If it's a major city with an Asian Art museum or a costume museum you might try taking it there to see if it's authentic - or calling and asking them where they suggest.
 
The collar is bothering me on this. I know it seems a small point, but it just doesn't look quite spot on. I recently sold this authentic pre-war cheongsam, and while the lines on all these are similar, you can see differences in the collar and in the way the bodice fastens. Mine has a diagonal closure and tiny frog fastenings rather than snaps. Based on the copious amount of research I did on this to price it, I believe those are more in line with cheongsams from that time. The collar on mine was stiffened, but it felt like by a layer of stiff fabric, not papery (yours may have pellon lining the collar).

cheongsamfront.jpg


So, I think yours is newer, but am totally clueless as to how much newer. The colors seem 70s to me, as do the puffy-ish sleeves on the bolero. But both the cheongsam and bolero are pretty classic and timeless, and I have a hard time dating them.
 
Hi, I am not really sure if I have someplace local that would be able to help me. I am located along the treasure coast of Florida. Perhaps if I go into South Florida I might be able to find someone who can help date this piece in person.

Thank you for your compliments on the dress and my photos Linn. That's always nice to hear.

I measured the length of the dress per Linn's request. It measures 48" from the collar seam to the bottom or 45" from the shoulder to the bottom. I am 5'8" and I believe it would be calf length on me. I think I had it on my manni backwards too. In reading the snaps are supposed to go on the right side. I had them on the left.

When measuring I also noticed something I had not noticed before. A little bit of the fabric has deteriorated on the collar and I can see the stiff thing in the collar. It looks like clear plastic to me. Here are two photos.

DSC01897.jpg


DSC01898.jpg


Thank you all for helping me. I really appreciate it.
Caryn
 
Caryn-

Thanks for measuring it. I think that length works for the 1930's. I have seen a few other qipao or cheongsam with collars that are similar to the one on your dress. I just read the other thread and I thnk that if you got this from the same person as the 1930's blue jacket that it's likely that it's from the same era. The big mystery is what is the plastic like thing in the lining of the collar? Celluloid maybe???
 
Linn, You are reading my mind because that is a mystery to me too. I don't believe I have ever had the honor to have felt celluloid. I have seen it online and it sure looks pretty when it is made into jewelry or on purses.

I looked at some qi pao dresses and cheongsam dresses. They do look very similar. I believe I saw one with a collar similar to this which isn't much but it could be cross cultured as Jonathan suggested.

I am seriously loving this dress though the more I look at it. The interesting thing is I was not that crazy about it at first but after feeling the raised flowers, seeing the nice quality throughout the dress, and the contrast between the print and the silk made me like it a whole lot more. If I could fit it on more than my pinky I would keep it for myself. ;)

Caryn
 
You do??? Awesome! What do you think is an accurate era for this dress and bolero Joan?

BTW Joan, your stuff looks gorgeous that you have for sale! Truly Lovely

Caryn
 
Bumping because I am hoping you will take a look at the plastic in the collar and let me know if you know what it is called or what I should call it when I offer this. Thank you, Caryn
 
Hi Anne, Yes, I was elated to receive the response and shared as soon as I found out. I am so happy that I stuck it out and held onto it until I knew for sure. :)

Caryn
 
Back
Top