Please help me w/ shoes - stilettos? spikes?

igotbuttons

igotbuttons

Registered Guest
Hello everyone! I have several pairs of shoes that I have questions about. Most shoes hurt my feet so I never really learned the differences about construction, styles, designs, eras, keywords, etc. but I do LOVE to buy them! LOL

Is there a reference book that I can purchase that is devoted entirely to shoes and styles of shoes so that I can start learning more about them?

Well, here is the first pair of shoes I was able to get pics of quickly yesterday.

The heels are 3 1/2" tall. I'm not sure if they are stiletto or spike heels. What's the difference? Can anyone help me with age?

They are more of a steel gray. One shoe reads "Thos. Cort LTD." with "Gotham" and the other reads "Herman's" on the inside (is this called the insole?). They are size 7.

Thanks in advance for any assistance!

patti

stilettos.jpg

stilettos2.jpg

stilettos1.jpg
 
Hi Patti,

Stiletto's and spike heels are one and the same as far as I know. These are fab!

I'm sure someone else will tell you of a good reference book, I would love to know of a good all-round one too. :)
 
they are lovely..and l agree hatty they are one and the same......

they arent a uk size 8 are they?
 
Sara & Hatty -

I even looked up stiletto in the dictionary because I KNEW that I had it spelled incorrectly (I did, I had an extra "L"!) and the definition stated that a stiletto heel is "A high heel on women's shoes that is thinner than a spike heel."

Well, that brought up more questions for me! LOL "Spike heels? What are THOSE?!"

You have to understand that these questions are coming from someone whose favorite shoes are her steel toed boots (occupational hazards, I'm afraid!) but she covets these fancy shoes she sees and buys but they kill her feet when she wears them!

In regards to UK sizing, I'm not certain about that. There is only one size printed in the shoes and it is "7N" but the inside measurements are as follows:

toe to heel: just over 10" but not quite 10 1/4" (that's measured from the tape the whole way down in the point of the toe)

widest area before the shoe begins to rise to the heel: 2 3/4" - I hope I got that right!

I REALLY wish there was a shoe encyclopedia somewhere so I that could learn about all of the terminology regarding shoes. I recall that there is a member in Canada (I think) who is affiliated with a shoe museum and I would LOVE to get input from that person about reference books!

Patti
 
I would have said 60s but for the 7 "N". Older shoes have markings of B, A, AA while more newer shoes have N, M, W. I am stumped. 80s? I did (maybe, still do..lol) have some that exact color purchased in the 80s.

Jonathan is coming out with a shoe reference book next year, I think.
 
I always thought spike heel and stiletto were interhangeable as they look the same!

Sorry Sara but a US 7 which equals to a UK 5, if they were a UK 8 (US 10), I would have had to battle you for them:D

Lei
 
I will wade in here:-
The word Stiletto was first used to describe a short thin dagger around 1500's
This is according to the oxford dictionary and on line here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stiletto I do not just know how it made the change to describe a shoe heel but presumably Stiletto daggers were not carried much in recent years and the original meaning of the word when out of use by the 1950's so it's used in a different context as a word for a ladies shoe heel.
High thin heels might have been worn before the 1950's , I have read these heels were around some time before 1950 only as fetish wear, but I have not see or know of any examples. Maybe someone can help out on this in time, the word spike may have been use to describe these.
It is possible that some one was trying to trademarks the word Stiletto in the shoe context after 1950 to describe and sell new 50's heel style and it did not come off but ended up been used commonly like Hoover is used today.
I am on my back up PC at the moment and not got all my info at hand but if I remember right there is conflicting info on who come out with the very first Stiletto in the 1950's and promoted it , and this could account for the to name to run together.
Just a little info and extrapolation.

from my web site
The 50's was the decade for the spike or stiletto heeled . Designed to draw attention to the leg and calf by and making the leg look longer than what it was.
The "stiletto" means dagger in Italian , which refers to a short thin dagger.

Salvatore Ferragamo http://www.salvatoreferragamo.it/web/ingdonnamuseo.html
a shoe designer is credited with creating the steel support in a synthetic heel which allowed for a very small heel tip, he made between 1927 and 1960 a staggering 20,000 different shoe designs.

The person attributed to making the stiletto a popular style of shoe for women was the shoe designer Charles Jourden

http://www.charles-jourdan.com
in the 1950. The heel height in the 50's were more modest at around 2 "or 3 " than some of the stilettos of today this lower high of heel allows women to walk elegantly. some people only think that a true stiletto as to have a heel height over 3 1/2 "
Click to expand...


P.S see the post below by Jonathan:-
PAUL
 
Hi,
Neat shoes. Shoes can be a mystery, but I think stiletto & spikes in your auction title will bring in the same buyers. As far as the size goes, the N beside the size stands for Narrow. If you do not have narrow feet, then these would surely cause some discomfort! :) These look 60's to me but I can't remember when narrow began to be indicated by an -N- instead of -AAA-. I find so many times that the styles keep coming back around and it makes it all the more confusing.
good luck with your shoe education! ;)
Carrie
 
I read through the shoe workshop again (I read it once last year) but now the pictures are all missing!! Those would have been a great help to me. Does anyone know if the pics will be back on the workshop if it's just a glitch with the new site?

patti
 
All stiletto heels are spike heels. Spike is a non-shoe industry collective term to refer to high, thin heels but because it isn't used in the shoe industry to describe any particular type of heel (in style or construction method) it can be whatever you want it to mean.

Paul, your website history is correct, although the inventor of the stiletto heel was Charles Jordan, not the more famous Jourdan. It was a different man who created the stiletto heel. I think he actually designed it in 1952 but he made his out of laminated wood and they weren't being commercially produced until later. The steel rod addition to heel cores was in 1954 and both Vivier and Ferragamo take credit for using it first, I believe Ferragamo dubbed it 'stiletto' which is a short bladed weapon in Italian. Who actually invented the use of a metal rod up the centre is up for debate...

Patti -- if you can wait three months, my book will be coming out. It is called 'The Seductive Shoe - Four Centuries of Fashion Footwear 1600 - 2000'
 
Ok I'm confused here. Where did the notion come from that only later shoes have width markings M N and W? I have never seen this in any of the research I have done. Although it is more common for early shoes to use the AA, A, B, C it is not a rule. I have been in the business a while now and have come across plenty of early shoes that use the M, N, W width markings. I am posting pictures of three pair The red ones are from the early 50s the brown are earlier and the black are early 60s. All use the M or N. If you look close you can see the marks. The red are 5 1/2M the brown are 7 0 N (size 7 narrow) and the black stilletos are 6 1/2 M. Could someone please tell me where this information came from?

shoesize.jpg
 
There has been a gradual move away from the A - E width markings to N M W. The A-E width markings are the earliest and were intended for international exports because it doesn't relate to a particular word in English. They appear as early as the 1880s although the earliest I have ever seen width markings is the early 1900s. I have seen N M W on shoes as early as the 1920s, usually in American mid-quality shoes intended for American resale, not export. I think today you tend to see the A-E markings on shoes made in Italy for export to the U.S. but most imported shoes are now also using the N M W as they are made specifically for the ENglish language market.
 
Thank you for the info Johnathan. If you have been in the business long enough you know that these terms have been around for a long time but for newer dealers and customers a rumor like that can be a real problem.

My main concern is that honest dealers have been missinformed and are applying it to their business. Or that customers will think dealers are deceptive in their dating of shoes. In the thread someone was trying to date these shoes with the notion that N, M and W were not used until after the 1960s.
This is not the first time I have heard this, I actually had a customer pass on a pair of shoes at a show because she thought I was misrepresenting the date. They were a pair of kidskin pumps from the 1930s with an M width she said that she read that could not be since they did not use that mode of describing width at that time. She was not inclined to hear otherwise. I just dismissed the incident, you hear so many false "facts" in this business but usually they die out. This notion however has continued and I am hearing it hear and there. So far no one has been able to tell me the source

I'm trying to find out where it came from. Did someone print it in a book? is it on a website? I would love to know. Vintage books etc, often have a little glitch here or there in dating an item but this is more serious. I am considering posting a note on my website shoe page regarding the subject but would like to be able to reference the source of the mistake. I hate saying "some people out there say...".

Thanks! Melody
 
It is more common to find the A-E widths in pre 1960 shoes than post 1960 shoes so perhaps it just got extrapolated from that. Its a bit like the metal versus nylon zipper rule for c. 1965 as the dividing date. You can find metal zippers on dresses in the 1970s and 1980s and I think the earliest nylon zippers can show up in the mid 1950s, but its not a 100% rule. The A-E width in shoes being pre 1960 is probably more true in English shoes than American shoes as well.
 
Nothing is consistent - except materials that makers stopped using during WWII perhaps. Even makers labels for the label resource - sometimes you will see a few labels used concurrently or a label doesn't have a definitive end date as they may have had a leftover box of labels and used them. Easy to understand as a company cost cutting/frugal business decision but maddening for historians
 
You both are so right people want rules but they can be dangerous.

I have a sad story about zippers. When I was a a new college student (I am 51 now) I loved to look for vintage at our thrift stores. I ran across a simple floor length red jersey dress that looked 1930s but it had a plastic zipper, the label read Schiaparelli. I had no clue about designers back then. All I knew was old dresses had metal zippers. I did not buy it because it had a plastic zipper. I thought it had to be new... (pause for heavy sigh)

Well, needless to say I soon learned about this Schiaparelli person AND that she had experimented with plastic zippers in the 1930s....(pause again for second heavy sigh)

Thirty years later I still feel the pain. Schiaparelli has become one of my favorite designers. Oh to have that moment in time again. I guess that is why the vigilance here.
 
OH MY GOD THAT SUCKS.

Well, if it makes you feel any better, about 20 years ago I passed by a rack of 1920s and 30s floral print dresses at a vintage clothing sale and right after me this woman picked a dress out from the rack that was labelled 'Gabriel Chanel' She had the nerve to ask the dealer for a discount (I believe it was priced at $85.00) I leaned over and told the dealer I would be happy to pay the full price, and the other woman shot arrows through her eyes at me and paid in full for the dress at the asking price.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top