Seeking I.D on a hat name, approx date, when/where worn

[Karen Jenkins]

Hi there
I'm attaching a thumbnail of the hat I'd like some help with, and I wonder if anyone can offer further insights on the approx date this hat/era might be, what it was made of, (colour guess?) and the ocassions when it might have been worn? The picture was taken in the UK.

I have asked one lady who writes a vintage blog, and she suggested approx 1908.
I'd be super grateful for any of your additional ideas of date, name of hat type, and when/where worn.
Hat is one shown below.
Thank you so much!
Karen x

 

[poisson_rouge]

Not a hat expert, but I would guess late Victorian (pre-1900) -- I feel like I've seen more flat brims of that size in that era compared with Edwardian (early-1900s). The person you spoke to may have said 1908 because of the Merry Widow-style hat that became popular in 1907, but those hats usually had a much wider brim with art nouveau-esque contours. This hat looks understated and conservative compared to that! I definitely see it fitting it with mourning attire.

Again not a hat expert so I might be wrong! I'm also going off the hint of a collar that shows at the bottom of the pic. Do you have a larger image that shows more of the rest of the outfit?

 

[Jonathan]

It looks a bit later to me - more 1911-13ish, but Barbara will come along eventually... she is the hat guru goto

 

[Rue_de_la_Paix]

Well, for a few reasons this one is a little difficult to date with 100% accuracy for me, but the general look of it is around the time suggested by Jonathan. I might put it around 1913-1915. I feel it is not a mourning hat as the trim on the side is too fancy for that. It looks to be made of a hard, fairly thin straw, probably black or other dark color, and the sash is a dark color silk which is suggested by the way the light reflects off the folded fabric. The side pouf appears to be some sort of fabric "flower pouf", not a feather as I first thought. The trims may have been changed/added by the wearer which was very common at the time. She appears to be of a moderate income and so would have only a few hats, generally darker in colors, which she would change in trims to fit the seasons or occassion. So the hat itself may be older than the trimmings, which is why I am not 100% sure on dating this one. But the brim is a medium brim which leans more to the post 1912 time period. The photo is very tiny so more details are not evident to me. As to where she would have worn it, I cannot say, maybe church or walking about town. It is not a fancy or formal hat, but may have been the best she owned.

 

[Karen Jenkins]

Am just attaching a larger photo now....

 

[Karen Jenkins]

It looks a bit later to me - more 1911-13ish, but Barbara will come along eventually... she is the hat guru goto

thank you so much for your reply...I just posted the photo again in larger size, below.

 

[Karen Jenkins]

Not a hat expert, but I would guess late Victorian (pre-1900) -- I feel like I've seen more flat brims of that size in that era compared with Edwardian (early-1900s). The person you spoke to may have said 1908 because of the Merry Widow-style hat that became popular in 1907, but those hats usually had a much wider brim with art nouveau-esque contours. This hat looks understated and conservative compared to that! I definitely see it fitting it with mourning attire.

Again not a hat expert so I might be wrong! I'm also going off the hint of a collar that shows at the bottom of the pic. Do you have a larger image that shows more of the rest of the outfit?

Thank you so much for your thoughts! I just posted a larger size of the photo as per your request. Sadly I have no other part of this photo, only her face and hat. I too thought it might have been a mourning hat.

 

[Karen Jenkins]

Well, for a few reasons this one is a little difficult to date with 100% accuracy for me, but the general look of it is around the time suggested by Jonathan. I might put it around 1913-1915. I feel it is not a mourning hat as the trim on the side is too fancy for that. It looks to be made of a hard, fairly thin straw, probably black or other dark color, and the sash is a dark color silk which is suggested by the way the light reflects off the folded fabric. The side pouf appears to be some sort of fabric "flower pouf", not a feather as I first thought. The trims may have been changed/added by the wearer which was very common at the time. She appears to be of a moderate income and so would have only a few hats, generally darker in colors, which she would change in trims to fit the seasons or occassion. So the hat itself may be older than the trimmings, which is why I am not 100% sure on dating this one. But the brim is a medium brim which leans more to the post 1912 time period. The photo is very tiny so more details are not evident to me. As to where she would have worn it, I cannot say, maybe church or walking about town. It is not a fancy or formal hat, but may have been the best she owned.

Thank you so much for your considered thoughts on this hat, I really appreciate it. I have just posted a larger size of the photo, in this thread, in case more details become apparent to you from that.

 

[Rue_de_la_Paix]

Thanks for the enlarged photo. Still holding to my initial assessment. Why do you feel this may have been a mourning hat?

 

[poisson_rouge]

Thanks for the enlarged photo. Still holding to my initial assessment. Why do you feel this may have been a mourning hat?

Don't want to speak for Karen -- for me though, the dark color and UK reference had me thinking it fit the late mourning period. I've seen ads from that period for similar hats and contemporary sellers who have labeled them from the mourning period. I definitely don't have the experience of you or Jonathan though.

 

[Rue_de_la_Paix]

. I've seen ads from that period for similar hats and contemporary sellers who have labeled them from the mourning period. I definitely don't have the experience of you or Jonathan though.

Thank you for the compliment for Jonathan and I, that was nice of you to say. This is a common misconception about mourning hats. It is a very common thing for contemporary sellers to label almost any old black has as a "mourning hat". In my experience, I estimate about 90% (or more) of these hats are not mourning hats. Not to say that a woman would not wear one of her own black hats in her closet when she was mourning, that was often done. But wearing a black hat when you are in mourning does not make your hat a mourning hat, any more than wearing a pair of black shoes makes those mourning shoes. The most common color of hats in that time period was black. Almost every woman wore a black hat at some time or other, often every day for some woman. Black straws were considered fine to wear right through the entire Autumn season, skipping only Winter wear. There are so many photos of Victorian and Edwardian women dressed in what appears to be dark colors (hard to tell in an old black and white photo in many cases), and you often see them described today as "dressed in mourning clothes" when they are often wearing just their regular clothing. There were strict requirements for mourning hats just as there were for the entire outfit a widow or relative would wear. Of course, these slowly fell to the wayside along the way to modern times. There were even specific fabrics which were only used for mourning hats and veils and for nothing else. Trims were frowned upon unless the trims were made from this same fabric. Even jet or black glass hat pins were generally frowned in early mourning, but jet jewelry was popular for later mourning periods as we all know. As the mourning period progressed these rules were relaxed and more color and trims could be added to the attire, such as ivory and purple. If a woman had the money she had a mourning hat made for herself by a milliner. If not, she wore whatever most suitable black hat she owned. She often continued to wear it for years afterwards if she was poor, just added some little trims over the years to make it more stylish.

So calling any black hat a mourning hat is a rampamt error on the internet, but that is par for the course on the net. But it makes me crazy!! Smiles.....

Guess I had to get this off my chest!

 

[Karen Jenkins]

Thank you for the compliment for Jonathan and I, that was nice of you to say. This is a common misconception about mourning hats. It is a very common thing for contemporary sellers to label almost any old black has as a "mourning hat". In my experience, I estimate about 90% (or more) of these hats are not mourning hats. Not to say that a woman would not wear one of her own black hats in her closet when she was mourning, that was often done. But wearing a black hat when you are in mourning does not make your hat a mourning hat, any more than wearing a pair of black shoes makes those mourning shoes. The most common color of hats in that time period was black. Almost every woman wore a black hat at some time or other, often every day for some woman. Black straws were considered fine to wear right through the entire Autumn season, skipping only Winter wear. There are so many photos of Victorian and Edwardian women dressed in what appears to be dark colors (hard to tell in an old black and white photo in many cases), and you often see them described today as "dressed in mourning clothes" when they are often wearing just their regular clothing. There were strict requirements for mourning hats just as there were for the entire outfit a widow or relative would wear. Of course, these slowly fell to the wayside along the way to modern times. There were even specific fabrics which were only used for mourning hats and veils and for nothing else. Trims were frowned upon unless the trims were made from this same fabric. Even jet or black glass hat pins were generally frowned in early mourning, but jet jewelry was popular for later mourning periods as we all know. As the mourning period progressed these rules were relaxed and more color and trims could be added to the attire, such as ivory and purple. If a woman had the money she had a mourning hat made for herself by a milliner. If not, she wore whatever most suitable black hat she owned. She often continued to wear it for years afterwards if she was poor, just added some little trims over the years to make it more stylish.

So calling any black hat a mourning hat is a rampamt error on the internet, but that is par for the course on the net. But it makes me crazy!! Smiles.....

Guess I had to get this off my chest!

I am incredibly grateful for your comments here, thank you so very much. Would you believe it - when I first saw this photo some weeks ago, I thought " I wonder if she was a milliner?". Turns out - she was! Ha! So perhaps that accounts the "moderate income" you referred to. You asked why I thought it was a mourning hat; I think just because she looked like she might have been in mourning. I do know she had lost a dear loved one some years before. And I know they didn't tend to pose "smiling" in those days, but, that was where the thought came from about mourning. I didn't really have anything more solid than that. So thanks again so much. I have really enjoyed reading all of your thoughts and wisdom on the subject. Thank you for the warm welcome into the group xx

 

[Karen Jenkins]

Don't want to speak for Karen -- for me though, the dark color and UK reference had me thinking it fit the late mourning period. I've seen ads from that period for similar hats and contemporary sellers who have labeled them from the mourning period. I definitely don't have the experience of you or Jonathan though.

Thanks so much for weighing in again on this! I can see it is not that easy to date a hat or its function! Thank you for opening my eyes to the hat world! I bow to all of your greater wisdoms than mine! x

 

[Karen Jenkins]

Thanks for the enlarged photo. Still holding to my initial assessment. Why do you feel this may have been a mourning hat?

Oops, I answered this within my new reply below - sorry! To add to what I said there: I think, because it was a dark coloured hat, and, it didn't seem overly fancy, in fact more understated despite the puff. But I did wonder if mourning hats were usually very plain indeed, and nothing added. So I wasn't sure, when I wrote the initial post. x

 

[Rue_de_la_Paix]

Karen,

You are right about her looking so unhappy, so not a bad guess that she was in mourning or a really sad mood.

 

[poisson_rouge]

Thank you for the compliment for Jonathan and I, that was nice of you to say. This is a common misconception about mourning hats. It is a very common thing for contemporary sellers to label almost any old black has as a "mourning hat". In my experience, I estimate about 90% (or more) of these hats are not mourning hats. Not to say that a woman would not wear one of her own black hats in her closet when she was mourning, that was often done. But wearing a black hat when you are in mourning does not make your hat a mourning hat, any more than wearing a pair of black shoes makes those mourning shoes. The most common color of hats in that time period was black. Almost every woman wore a black hat at some time or other, often every day for some woman. Black straws were considered fine to wear right through the entire Autumn season, skipping only Winter wear. There are so many photos of Victorian and Edwardian women dressed in what appears to be dark colors (hard to tell in an old black and white photo in many cases), and you often see them described today as "dressed in mourning clothes" when they are often wearing just their regular clothing. There were strict requirements for mourning hats just as there were for the entire outfit a widow or relative would wear. Of course, these slowly fell to the wayside along the way to modern times. There were even specific fabrics which were only used for mourning hats and veils and for nothing else. Trims were frowned upon unless the trims were made from this same fabric. Even jet or black glass hat pins were generally frowned in early mourning, but jet jewelry was popular for later mourning periods as we all know. As the mourning period progressed these rules were relaxed and more color and trims could be added to the attire, such as ivory and purple. If a woman had the money she had a mourning hat made for herself by a milliner. If not, she wore whatever most suitable black hat she owned. She often continued to wear it for years afterwards if she was poor, just added some little trims over the years to make it more stylish.

So calling any black hat a mourning hat is a rampamt error on the internet, but that is par for the course on the net. But it makes me crazy!! Smiles.....

Guess I had to get this off my chest!

Woww this is a wonderful rant! I appreciate all your insight but I'm still a little confused -- I meant "mourning era," like, not for individual mourning periods but the late Victorian period where the Queen's mourning of Prince Albert fed down into the style of the general public. So, not people in their own mourning period but those engaging with fashionable black jewelry and clothes. Is it that the Queen's mourning attire was less impactful on style than the internet makes it seem now?? I'll admit as a relative tenderfoot, it's hard to judge when every piece of jet, black enamel jewelry or black dress is assigned to that style.

 

[Rue_de_la_Paix]

Dear Poisson-Rouge,

My sharing of my thoughts and opinions was certainly not a "rant". It was intended to be a helpful short discourse on mourning hats and should be taken that way. As for your stated confusion I am not sure what you refer to. If I confused you that was my intent and I am happy to clear that up.

Albert died 50 years before Queen Victoria died in 1901 and I am not familiar people today using the fashion term "mourning period" for that entire very long span of years. I do know that when Victoria donned black (and never stopped) after Albert's death, it did create a sympathetic wearing of black by the populous in the UK for some time. But it is doubtful that many ladies were still in mourning for him and wearing black for that reason in the late 1800s as you infer.

 

[Midge]

I agree, Barbara! That seems a little improbable to me to...