1 yd/mtr pale grey grosgrain millinery ribbon

Pinkcoke

Pinkcoke

Alumni
For the rim of a vintage top hat, where the original has glue marks. I don't know how they prevented this originally, probably it's sewn in the better quality hats? This is only a Dunn & Co. The label under the lining suggests it could be from 1975.
 
Melanie,

If you don't find some let me know as I will keep an eye out as I go through my things, I know I have it in many colors and neutrals. I think I recall you do sewing and costuming? Just in case you don't know (and you probably do) , be sure you get true millinery grosgrain with the sawtooth edge, as the regular grosgrain will not work at all for hats. Odd that they glued the outer brim edge, I have only seen that on costume hats.

Do you do millinery work? We should talk!
 
Melanie, I have two shades of millinery petersham: cream and light brown. The light brown might work? It's 15mm wide.

I agree with Barbara regarding gluing the petersham - as fond as I am of the hot glue gun, petersham should only be sewn in.
 
Rue_de_la_Paix said:
If you don't find some let me know as I will keep an eye out as I go through my things, I know I have it in many colors and neutrals. I think I recall you do sewing and costuming? Just in case you don't know (and you probably do) , be sure you get true millinery grosgrain with the sawtooth edge, as the regular grosgrain will not work at all for hats. Odd that they glued the outer brim edge, I have only seen that on costume hats.
Do you do millinery work? We should talk!
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No, but I am interested in restoration, I've worked for a 2nd generation Haberdashery for 8 years now. The floor manager at the shop makes occasion headpieces in her spare time and I was always fascinated by the construction - when there was no more work to do she'd be cutting out and sewing petals/leaves for her fascinator orders.
I have only found vintage ribbon occasionally in our bulk buy ribbon bundles (they are usually all old stock from suppliers and shut down manufacturers). I particularly like to buy the old double satin ribbons which are probably millinery for pointe shoes because they are much softer/pliable and yet have more grip than modern satin when crossed. I've never tested the material but they are quite velvety. (I know you can buy proper half grosgrain half satin pointe shoe ribbon but this has the same stiffness issue as all modern ribbons do).

I heard about the different grosgrains on the Fedora Lounge, there is a wonderful vintage haberdashery shop recommended on the south east coast but it's a good 4 hours away; a trip for another day :)
I looked on Ebay, only found US suppliers, a very nice chap on there put me in contact with Ascot top hats in the UK, who has offered a range of greys, but they don't appear to be sawtooth edged. What do you think?
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Melanie,

Yes, all of those greys you show are indeed millinery grosgrain ribbon, and have a sawtooth edge. Without that edge, the ribbon cannot be "swirled", which you absolutely positively must do before using it if you want it to take the rounded shape of any part of a hat. If you don't swirl it, it won't take the shape you want, and will leave gaps and bumps. If your floor manager is a milliner, she will know. If she only makes fascinators and does not do actual millinery, she may not know how.
 
Circa Vintage said:
Melanie, I have two shades of millinery petersham: cream and light brown. The light brown might work? It's 15mm wide.
I agree with Barbara regarding gluing the petersham - as fond as I am of the hot glue gun, petersham should only be sewn in.
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Unfortunately 15mm is definitely too narrow, on the side edge where the brim is most curled, the ribbon showing is 15mm, not including the 7mm or so I can feel curled underneath.
I'm definetly not going to glue it in! :) I think (guess really) that the ribbon would stay in place by tension alone, it appears to have been sewn together in a loop and then stretched on and perhaps steamed? I might get away with a couple of tacking stitches well hidden.
Incidentally while I was searching this the definition of petersham came up on one hat site; you might recall Nicole, but others may not know that Petersham is a different product altogether in the UK, otherwise known as waistbanding, it can come straight or curved and is a thicker, heavier tape with a more pronounced grosgrain. The straight, for what reason I do not know, has two contrast bands running through it (this is a pain when covering with light coloured fabric!).

Our straight seam tape is far closer to millinery ribbon than any grosgrain I have held, the seam tape has the sawtooth edge and is thinner, through still not as pliable.

sewingmachinegirl said:
Melanie, I finally found my grosgrain, but its actually a light lavender almost grey shade, so I am guessing it may not work, apologies for getting your hopes up!
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No worries, thanks for looking.
My hat is close to the 2nd lightest grey shown above, the ribbon lighter still though it's perhaps discoloured and slightly on the khaki/beiger side of grey. Looking onlineit was probably the palest grey originally.
 
Hi,

Millinery ribbon (always grosgrain) can be a variety of weights, thicknesses, widths, colors, patterns, etc. It is defined by 1 thing only...the fact that it has what we refer to as a sawtooth or bumpy edge. No bumpy edge, no millinery ribbon. It should be natural fiber like silk or cotton... or rayon works too. Avoid the acetate variety unless you only want it for the inside sweatband, and even then natural is preferred.

I have always used the term grosgrain ribbon in the USA, and Petersham in the UK. I did think they were interchangeable terms, as Nicole used it. Perhaps in the UK they say "millinery petersham" to distinguish it from the other varieties.
 
The hat in question: when I saw it I just thought this would be a good starter/practice piece. Not disastrous if it all went wrong!
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I tried to look up the patents, the first dates from 1939 and goes to a shoe heel covering machine! and I can't find a record for the second, though it dates to the 20's. I assume one is for the design and the other the for the manufacturing technique.
However the acetate size ribbon and gold print on brown make me believe it's not older than 70's. The lining is just glued in under the band, I released it a little to read that label.
 
HI,

Thanks for showing the hat. I have to say you are brave to attempt this as starter piece! Placing the ribbon on the edge of a hat, especially with a turned up brim edge, can be a bit of a pain! I have done it many times,, but never used glue.

Might I ask, can you show a close up of the ribbon brim edge, under and over? I am really curious to see it. Is it possible that the original edge ribbon was removed long ago and has already been replaced using glue?
 
I also wanted to add that if the glued ribbon is original to the hat, that the hat manufacturer may have used a commercial machine/former/iron or it was done by hand using a wooden hat maker's tool that, after steaming the ribbon in place, would press/iron/smooth it to take the shape.
 
I can confirm that we Australians also used the term "petersham" for waistbanding. I'm currently listing a pattern from 1962 that calls for it and recommends as material "Barathea, Givrine etc...."

A bit off topic, but any ideas on what Givrine was? I found Barathea in the fabulous Label Resource but the mysterious Givrine eludes me. The pattern is for a skirt suit so it must have a certain amount of substance to it.
 
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