600 year old bras and knickers discovered!

retro ruth

retro ruth

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Bras and knickers have been discovered in the vault of an Austrian castle, which have been carbon dated to the 15th century.

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The Daily Mail story

And another version with a few more scientific facts

They are saying it'll rewrite fashion history.
 
I hadn't read the comments, they are funny!

What I want to know is why it took 600 years for someone to clean out that vault!
Click to expand...

The vault was buried under an additional level of the castle that was added the 15th century. They got the archeologists in when they were renovating (as you do).

I've now found the University of Innsbrucks original announcement - it was their archeologists. They found shoes, or shoes parts, Jonathan! And a codpiece!

And apparently those knickers are actually men's underpants! see this article:

Also found at Lemberg Castle in Tyrol was a linen undergarment that looks very much like a pair of panties. But Nutz said it is men's underwear — women did not wear anything under their flowing skirts back then. "Underpants were considered a symbol of male dominance and power," she said. Medieval drawings often show a man and a woman fighting for a pair of underpants in a symbolic battle to see who "wears the trousers" in the family.
 
Wow - fascinating stuff! The university's website also shows the original text of the poem which is quite intriguing. It's pretty understandable by today's standards. Sometimes old German texts are written in a way that it is almost ununderstandable. It also gives a clue where a certain vulgar German expression for breasts has it's roots. The word they used then for breasts is almost the same. Interesting! I didn't know about the motif of a man and a woman fighting for a pair of underpants having been common then, but the expression "she's the one who wears the trousers" is one we still use here. Some things never change :hysterical:.

Karin
 
A quote from a colleague of mine gives the flip side of the coin. A bit of a dry assessment, but I agree 100%. " "

I read a lot of comments on this, and people feel that this is not really a bra at all, or is yet to be determined, and those are definitely not panties. But I agree it is a fun story.

Deleted Quote as I did not realize this is the Public Forum, to be respectful to her.
 
Jonathan, you almost got the word already... the poem talks of "tutten" in old German, the current vulgar expression is "titten". Too close to be a coincidence if you ask me :). I don't know if "tutten" was also a vulgar expression or not at the time. I'm still fascinated by the poem - as I said, it's pretty easily understandable, but the use of certain words will definitely generate a few laughs... we simply use them differently these days.

Karin
 
I agree all the news stories were sensationalised and inaccurate, which is why I hunted out the University's original announcement, and another from a scientific website.

The university clearly describes the so-called 'panties' as men's underpants, and describes the "bras" in detail, beginning: "Four linen textiles resemble modern time bras. The criterion for this classification is the presence of distinct cut cups." They use the terms "bras" in inverted commas throughout. Of course different scientists/historians may have different opinions on whether these should be classified as bras, but that's what academia is all about.

The reason all the news agencies have suddenly picked up on this, as the University announcement was months ago, is a more recently published story about it in BBC history magazine. I've only just found that online here.

Of course, the newspapers are more interested in titilation than facts.
 
The news articles are a fascinating read and the comments fun - the University article is even more interesting.

Thanks for the share!
 
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