Crocodile clutch: Any info appreciated-- especially on designer

[vintage_59]

Thank you for taking the time to read my post. I have looked everywhere online to try to identify the designer or manufacturer's mark of this vintage crocodile/antique clutch purse--with a patented sliding clasp. The mark which is pictured below is -- a cube or 3-d square mark the initials E.P. inside. The experts on the silver collectors forum "https://www.silver-collector.com" said the "EP" does not stand for "electroplated" but rather a designer or manufacturer. Have used an exhaustive list of designers to research the marks/labels on bags made by Evan Picone, Emillio Pucci, Elly Preston, Erwin Pearl and several others, with but the labels don't match. Have also researched the shape of the mark using key words "steel nut" and "cube" and "3-d square" and "square" with no results--which seems odd. And have used key words" vintage antique crocodile /alligator clutches" to find a similar clutches on google, ebay, estsy, etc. but no luck. The sliding clasp may be unusual and the patent number is engraved on the clasp.
Any information and thoughts about the bag would be appreciated as would any ideas about the mark. Thanks again.
.

The mark:

The mark is towards the bottom middle.

 

[Circa Vintage Clothing]

Hi vintage_59 and welcome to the forums.

Can't help you on the designer, but the style appears to be '30s.

 

[vintage_59]

Hi vintage_59 and welcome to the forums.

Can't help you on the designer, but the style appears to be '30s.

Thank you for your welcome as well as the information about it being from the 1930s. I just realized that the patent for the clasp --which I think may be unusual -- is dated April 1927, so 1930s is right. Now, I can use "1930's" as a key search word.

 

[Circa Vintage Clothing]

Good catch on the patent info!

PS, the strap was to hold gloves: when you sat at the restaurant table, you'd take your gloves off and slide them through the strap, keeping them secure and in easy reach for when you got up and put them back on. Or at least, that's what I've seen in old movies. You can also use it as a strap to hold the bag of course.

 

[vintage_59]

Good catch on the patent info!

PS, the strap was to hold gloves: when you sat at the restaurant table, you'd take your gloves off and slide them through the strap, keeping them secure and in easy reach for when you got up and put them back on. Or at least, that's what I've seen in old movies. You can also use it as a strap to hold the bag of course.

Thank you for this very interesting information about storing gloves--very interesting and useful. Sidenote: when I researched the patent I did find something interesting. One of the designers that cited the patent was Elizabeth Arden who I found out had an upscale line of handbags. But her mark/label on her bags was her full name.

 

[Circa Vintage Clothing]

Is it possible the logo is 'EA' and the leg of the 'A' has come off, making it look like a 'P'?

 

[vintage_59]

Is it possible the logo is 'EA' and the leg of the 'A' has come off, making it look like a 'P'?

, I thought of that too!! I think so. But when I researched her vintage bags all the labels had her full name " Elizabeth Arden." But I still think this could be possible. It is quite odd that the mark would be clear and sharp everywhere except that one part--but maybe it has to do with the way it was handled and closed and just that part wore off. I am going to research this further. And thank you for letting me know a key term is "1930s"

 

[Avantbo]

Is it possible the logo is 'EA' and the leg of the 'A' has come off, making it look like a 'P'?

Nice call.

 

[Avantbo]

, I thought of that too!! I think so. But when I researched her vintage bags all the labels had her full name " Elizabeth Arden." But I still think this could be possible. It is quite odd that the mark would be clear and sharp everywhere except that one part--but maybe it has to do with the way it was handled and closed and just that part wore off. I am going to research this further. And thank you for letting me know a key term is "1930s"

Not much help on the maker/retailer but I have taken your 1st photo and uploaded it again.

Outlined in red is the "umbilical scarring", this is common on Croc and 'Gator skin but varies, however only Croc skin, see blue have these pores, I have forgotten what they are called but all Crocs have sensory hairs and during tanning the hair falls out and the pores are left behind.

My point being, your bag is Croc" not Alligator or Caiman.

As for the clasp, I did some research a while ago on the inventor, he was quite prolific and patented a number of things including clasps. As I recall the earliest I came across of him was 1924 so that puts Nicole's 1930s dating bang on.

I have seen that cube logo before but don't remember it being with a EP or EA, I can't remember but DD comes to mind.

EDIT, A cup of tea helps refresh the old grey cells to a degree.

The inventor of the clasp, he had 1 or 2 compact cases to his name, that's where I think I have seen that logo before----maybe.

 

[Midge]

That's a beautiful bag - but unfortunately it may not be possible to find the designer or maker of it... there were so many companies out there producing great clothes and accessories that didn't stick a name on everything like today and which disappeared again into the mist of time before the internet came along, there is often very little to nothing to be found out about them... The logo on the clasp may also be from the company who produced that, but that may not have been the same company that produced the bag.

 

[vintage_59]

Not much help on the maker/retailer but I have taken your 1st photo and uploaded it again.

Outlined in red is the "umbilical scarring", this is common on Croc and 'Gator skin but varies, however only Croc skin, see blue have these pores, I have forgotten what they are called but all Crocs have sensory hairs and during tanning the hair falls out and the pores are left behind.

My point being, your bag is Croc" not Alligator or Caiman.

As for the clasp, I did some research a while ago on the inventor, he was quite prolific and patented a number of things including clasps. As I recall the earliest I came across of him was 1924 so that puts Nicole's 1930s dating bang on.

I have seen that cube logo before but don't remember it being with a EP or EA, I can't remember but DD comes to mind.

EDIT, A cup of tea helps refresh the old grey cells to a degree.

The inventor of the clasp, he had 1 or 2 compact cases to his name, that's where I think I have seen that logo before----maybe.

Thank you for your very informative post and especially for taking the time to upload the image and examine it. Knowing that it is croc is very helpful.

I was very interested to learn that you had researched the inventor--A Zeindlhofer and that you had seen cube logo!! Do you have any recollection
of what source you might have used to look up the logo? I do not have any books on hallmarks, but did try many many websites

When researching the logo and patent, I had only researched the company ----Groove-Lock Company Inc.--that the patient was assigned to. It did not occur to me to research the inventor: A Zeindlhofer . Thank you so much for giving me the idea of researching the inventor!!
I have attached the three-page patent below.

 

[Avantbo]

Thank you for your very informative post and especially for taking the time to upload the image and examine it. Knowing that it is croc is very helpful.

I was very interested to learn that you had researched the inventor--A Zeindlhofer and that you had seen cube logo!! Do you have any recollection
of what source you might have used to look up the logo? I do not have any books on hallmarks, but did try many many websites

When researching the logo and patent, I had only researched the company ----Groove-Lock Company Inc.--that the patient was assigned to. It did not occur to me to research the inventor: A Zeindlhofer . Thank you so much for giving me the idea of researching the inventor!!
I have attached the three-page patent below.

Hi,

You will have to pardon me, some of the old grey cells don't fire as effectively as they use to.

I get about a bit on several sites and it is hard to recall sometimes.

I have done some research on clasps, in fact I think some of us here did so on a thread to do with a vanity case.

I don't think my contribution led to identifying the maker of that item but it might have helped date it more accurately.

I came to the conclusion IDing a clasp maker would rarely lead to IDing the maker/retailer of an item.

The research I did on Zeinfhofer would have been brief while researching a particular item and can't remember where/if I posted it.

Taking into account flaky grey cells which is frustrating, I have seen that cube, it might be/has been on one of my very own items but I have seen that cube on compact cases but it might have been a purse/wallet.

 

[vintage_59]

Hi,

You will have to pardon me, some of the old grey cells don't fire as effectively as they use to.

I get about a bit on several sites and it is hard to recall sometimes.

I have done some research on clasps, in fact I think some of us here did so on a thread to do with a vanity case.

I don't think my contribution led to identifying the maker of that item but it might have helped date it more accurately.

I came to the conclusion IDing a clasp maker would rarely lead to IDing the maker/retailer of an item.

The research I did on Zeinfhofer would have been brief while researching a particular item and can't remember where/if I posted it.

Taking into account flaky grey cells which is frustrating, I have seen that cube, it might be/has been on one of my very own items but I have seen that cube on compact cases but it might have been a purse/wallet.

Thank you very much for your informative reply. This information is very useful--and quite a revelation!!

If I understand correctly--and this is a revelation to me--the cube mark with initials is for the clasp--not the clutch. I assumed that the mark was for the designer of the bag and that is why I was researching it.

When I see a mark like that on jewelry it is for the maker so I assumed this would be same.

I did not know that clasp inventors/designers would put a mark on their clasp. I hope you don't mind my asking--is it common for vintage clasp makers to put their ID/mark on the clasp.? And would it be uncommon for the designer/manufacturer to put their mark/ID on the clasp. I would really like to know--if anyone knows--where do vintage bag designers commonly put their label or mark.

If this is the case and the mark is not for bag designer/manufacturer than I will no longer try to Identify it.

Thank you for taking the time to read my post.

 

[Midge]

Yes, that is how it was. The makers of findings like clasps would put their own logo/stamp on their product. These items would be purchased by companies who designed and produced the actual bags. The manufacturer of the bag might put a small cloth label or stamp inside the bag to mark it as something made by them, but there are zillions of vintage handbags out there that do not have anything like that and where one may never know who produced it.

 

[Avantbo]

If this is the case and the mark is not for bag designer/manufacturer than I will no longer try to Identify it.

Welcome to the world of accessories and especially bags and purses that are now considered vintage.

It is as Midge states, it is how it was and I'm often puzzled.

There are so many vintage drop-dead gorgeous, bags, purses, compact/vanity cases out there. A few end up here on VFG and not a manufactures label in sight---WHY!?

So IDing the manufacture of a clasp mechanism in the case of bags/purses and such will rarely give you a lead as the the maker/retailer of the bag its self but might give you a lead as to dating of such items and to that end it is worth doing some research.

And research of an item can lead you up all sorts of avenues and red herrings, some tragic, others scandalous or funny as was the case and my favorite to date and have wined on this with my children--as was the case while dating an item my research indirectly but connected to a Court Case/Claim involving a Fountain and a Goosing.

So don't give up on the researching, often then not it comes to nothing but when it does, don't keep it to yourself, sites like VFG thrive on the hard work of research undertaken by its members but don't waste your time either, there is a balancing act to be practiced.

Yours is a nice item, it is one of many out there, it is vintage, 1930s there about and a decent have.

 

[vintage_59]

Yes, that is how it was. The makers of findings like clasps would put their own logo/stamp on their product. These items would be purchased by companies who designed and produced the actual bags. The manufacturer of the bag might put a small cloth label or stamp inside the bag to mark it as something made by them, but there are zillions of vintage handbags out there that do not have anything like that and where one may never know who produced it.

Thank you very much for taking the time to clarify this. Before posting on this forum, I mistakenly believed that the mark was for the designer and did not know that clasp makers would put their mark on the clasp. This is quite a revelation for me. And very very useful to know.

 

[vintage_59]

Welcome to the world of accessories and especially bags and purses that are now considered vintage.

It is as Midge states, it is how it was and I'm often puzzled.

There are so many vintage drop-dead gorgeous, bags, purses, compact/vanity cases out there. A few end up here on VFG and not a manufactures label in sight---WHY!?

So IDing the manufacture of a clasp mechanism in the case of bags/purses and such will rarely give you a lead as the the maker/retailer of the bag its self but might give you a lead as to dating of such items and to that end it is worth doing some research.

And research of an item can lead you up all sorts of avenues and red herrings, some tragic, others scandalous or funny as was the case and my favorite to date and have wined on this with my children--as was the case while dating an item my research indirectly but connected to a Court Case/Claim involving a Fountain and a Goosing.

So don't give up on the researching, often then not it comes to nothing but when it does, don't keep it to yourself, sites like VFG thrive on the hard work of research undertaken by its members but don't waste your time either, there is a balancing act to be practiced.

Yours is a nice item, it is one of many out there, it is vintage, 1930s there about and a decent have.

Thank you for wonderful insight and taking the time to clarify that " IDing the manufacturer of clasp... will rarely you a lead as the maker/retailer of the bag"-- although it may lead you to court claim involving a fountain and a Goosing Ha Ha

After reading your comments there are still a few things I am going to research as I agree with you the research can be quite interesting, and now that I know you have seen a cube mark I just have to look into that.

However, now that I realize I can't find the designer.

Just curious, has anyone seen this type of sliding clasp?

 

[vintage_59]

As for the clasp, I did some research a while ago on the inventor, he was quite prolific and patented a number of things including clasps. As I recall the earliest I came across of him was 1924 so that puts Nicole's 1930s dating bang on.

I think I may have solved the EP mystery: EP is for "Edward Poeter" E. Poeter of Irvington New Jersey, A corporation of New Jersey Handbag--Frame and latch. But when I googled him or the company, there were no results. Has anyone heard of him or the company? I found this information by following Avantbo suggestions. Thank you.

I also think the bag designer/manufacture/retailer might be "Martins-Birmingham Limited, _Birmingham, England, company of Great Britain." This is because there is engraving script under the square nut symbol and it says “B” and “M” or “H” 8-400.
Any information would be appreciated about Martins_Birmingtham would be appreciated as my google searches online literally had no results. Thank you.
Also, perhaps the “8-400” means something?

I have attached all my findings as well as two patents by Edward Poeter as PDF files and some Jpeg screen shots.