Date help on camiknickers- updated

date help on a pink all in one piece, my mum called them camiknickers. It's mostly, if not all, hand sewn- i even think the decorative cut out parts might be too, looking at the back. Fastens at the side with press studs, as well as coming apart at the bottom. Not sure about the fabric- possibly silk, possibly rayon. has (i want to call it fagoting?) "cut" out section, down the front and back in a 'v'. No labels. 40's-50's?









Any help, much appreciated!

 

bump

 

I think the bag is early 1960s. I also agree on the cami knickers being 70s or 80s. The detail on the flowers reminds me a lot of the floral cut out details of that era.

 

Agree on all dates. If the camiknickers were earlier, they wouldn't have snaps between the legs.

Nicole

 

Need to see the fastenings and the inside seams but the camiknickers look late 1930's or early 1940's. The press studs may indicate pre WW11.

 

Don't have a clue about the knickers but I agree on the bag. It's fabulous! What a great find!!

 

I think the cami-knickers might be late 30s into early 40s, even with the snaps at the crotch. Especially if they are silk. If they were more modern, I would expect them to have either no side opening, or a side zipper. I've never personally seen any lingerie after the mid to late 40s with side snaps (and I have a gazillion pieces on either side of those dates). Nor have I seen handstitched fagotting on anything later than about that time, though if these are "homemade," anything is possible. It would help to see the fastenings themselves and the construction, as vertugarde points out.

 

Rosine, is it possible to do a burn test on the fabric?

i *see* texture to the fabric in the picture.. very similar to cami's and teddie's that Barbizon made in the late 70s, early 80s. Even the embroidery and openwork is very similar to Barbizon. They were made of a crinkled very light weight almost sheer poly that has a hand almost identical to silk.

Is the faggoting a design element? I see it at the waist, but I can't tell if its repeated as construction on side seams or the gusset.

Are the press studs plastic or metal? Can we see more pictures of them, and the inside stitching along a seam please?

The legs look like they have a curly "lettuce leaf" edging to them.. which would also make it a later date.

Sorry to answer your question with more questions, Its darling no matter how old it is!
yvonne

 

I'm voting for 30s, silk, Chinese on the teddy.

 

Thanks for all of your replies- I'm glad i wasn't too off on the bag!

Now to these pesky camiknickers... I'll take pictures tommorow of the inside seams- they're all hand stitched french seams- (thats what i've always called the enclosed type of seams, not sure if its the technical term) and I'll get some picture of the press studs- they're silver coloured metal snaps.

there are some things I've noticed about the camiknickers that might be worth mentioning- you can't step in to them to get them on, the only way to get them on is to open the snaps at the crotch and pull over your head. The snaps at the side don't go down enough to allow you to pull over your hips. I couldn't fit the camiknickers on my mannequin, and she has a 24" waist. And that isn't because the camis are super small either, the measurements are bigger than my mannequin.

There's really no extra fabric on these that would allow me to do a burn test. All the seams are enclosed, and with the scallop edging being stitched over as a finish there's no hem I could snip a bit of fabric out of. It doesn't feel like a poly, but then again i know there are some sophisticated polyesters out there.

The faggoting is only used as a 'v' shape on the front and back- I noticed that the bottom knickers part below this v are cut on the bias- and the top half on the straight grain.

the outside edges are scalloped with a stitch that is almost like a blanket stitch, but there's a bit more to it. It looks like this stitching was put into place and then the fabric was cut to reflect the scallop shape, if that makes sense. You can tell because there's still a small line of the fabric on the outside of the scallop

Anyway, I'll post the pictures tomorrow, thanks for all you help!

 

Rosine, your camiknickers are the sort of piece that most of us would find easy to identify if only we could pick it up, feel it and look it closely!

Thanks for the extra information - many of the details you've mentioned sound like it's from the '30s (french seams, hand stitching, snaps at the side) and the fabric does look like a crepe de chine. However, it also looks quite new, and I've seen similar pieces made in the '70s and '80s in India and China where they still do lots of hand work. The cutwork design especially looks very Asian to me (we get a lot of Asian imports here in Australia, I imagine every one does these days).

The straps look like they're ribbons - sorry for extra questions but can you tell if they're silk or polyester? Can you find anywhere there might have been tags and they've been removed? I'm still strongly of the opinion that this is a recent repro piece. I've just seen too many dresses and tops with that same cutwork design.

Nicole

 

It looks 80s.

 

Here are the photos of the seams and inside:

inside:

side press stud opening:

side press stud opening:

crotch seams:


inside of faggoting:

close up of faggoting:

another seam:


inside of leg cutwork:

 

Yes, the straps are ribbons and I think they're probably silk. When i was checking the camis over when taking the photographs, i did spot this large rectangle stitching mark located at the side seam at the back. I thought it was rather large to have been from a label being removed, measuring just over 4 inches in length, especially on lingerie. But, I don't have any other suggestions on what has been removed, so i guess it must be. here it is:



I don't mind if the camis do date from the 80's, I just like to know to satisfy my own curiosity! I don't find much vintage lingerie, so it's been fun learning

 

Wow! Well, my vintage knowledge is certainly not as exensive as others' but I'm loving all the info in this thread and the great story! Can't wait to see what the verdict might be!

 

Thanks for the extra photos Rosine - and well done on finding the spot the label has been removed from. It must have been a very large label! I hate to think that people remove labels, perhaps they think they'll fool someone on the date (I'm sure if often happens).

Still sticking with my modern repro opinion (80s probably). Regardless, it's a beautifully made piece.

Nicole

 

These aren't modern repro cami-knickers. I believe they are early 1940's. There's so much hand-finishing and good detail. Ribbon straps were very common.

If you know the provenance it helps because these may have 'travelled.' They probably have been made in the UK but If if they came from the US hand finished lingerie was also being produced in the Philippines during WW11.

 

I am not saying vertugarde is wrong...

...but I do think there is a tendency to assume that if its 70s or 80s than it has to be a bit shoddy in the construction department. I have seen some exquisitely made lingerie from every decade, especially small makers that cater towards the bridal trousseau. If they are asian - I know there are some styles that really never went out in other parts of the world.

I really can't offer any expert opinions here, so will leave it to the experts.