Help to date silk and swansdown robe please

Hi everyone, Can you please help me date this robe? I'm thinking 1930s, but possibly late 40s or early 50s. It's silk. The trim is real feathers and I thought it was probably swans down. I don't think either of these materials would have been in use during WW2. My mother ( a young woman in the 50s) told me the down was frowned upon in the 50s on robes because they had discovered that it wasn't good for babies' lungs. There are no tags. It was originally 4 inches longer (mid-calf), but damaged, so I shortened it.

 

The feathers I think are more likely to be marabou feather, it sounds like swan's down could have been used as a more glamourous descriptive term to me, whether or not real swan's down was used. Can you show a close up of how it is attached to the robe, and of the original robe seams please?

 

Hello,

It is a pretty robe and I love the color. Judging only by the photos you show, it does not look to be pre 1950s. It has a more contemporary look to it, maybe 1970s or newer. The feathers are not swans down, they are too long and not as dense. As Melanie has pointed out, they are possibly marabou, but much more likely to be fake marabou which is from a domestic fowl such as a turkey, duck, etc. They almost look as if added to the robe later, as a way to make it more fancy?

 

Thanks. The shaped turn back lapels are not like anything I've seen on a modern garment. The down was stitched on with slip stitch, I removed it to soak the garment and stitched it back on again. Not much remarkable in the construction. French seams. Triple dart at the back of the neck is unusual. The sleeves narrow to the wrist and are finished with a band. I have altered them as they were damaged, it looked as though they would have originally had a trim. There is an internal tie at the waist. All I can say for sure about the trim is that it is real feathers.

 

Joanne,

Lovely to see in the close ups that the feather trim is also green. It is marabou, however a faux marabou, and does add a nice touch to the robe. The fact that it is imitation marabou does not really effect the dating as the faux stuff has been used since the 1920s. Real feathers, just taken from a different bird.

I am not seeing what you mean when you say the robe has "shaped, turn back lapels". They look like standard wide lapels to me. Since this is something that makes you think the robe is earlier, can you show us a good photo of the lapels, so we can see the shape. The shape is hidden by the feathers.

 

Hi Joanne,

Thank you for inviting me to comment on this thread - I concur with the others that this garment has a more modern look, but a home made garment can be made in any style in any era, according to the preferences of the seamstress and wearer so here's where I look to fabric, detailing and construction. I have some questions for you, and if you can supply details or (even better) photos, it will help narrow down a date.

• can you please determine fabric content - dressing gowns are boudoir items and generally washable so more likely to be rayons and synthetics than silk but if you still have the portion cut off, you can do a burn test which will be illuminating. More information can be found here.
• how is the inside of the neckline finished - is it hemmed with bias tape, faced or fully lined? Perhaps something else?
• how was the original hem sewn
• tell me about the belt loops: are they a chainstitch of thread, or a top stitched piping like the interior tie.
• speaking of which: what does the interior tie secure to - is it a similar tie on the other side or a (fabric or thread) loop?
  
• are there any darts or other forms of shaping apart from the darts at the back of the neck?
• can you please supply bust-waist-hip and original length if at all possible.
• how are the cuffs sewn, eg are they a separate piece that has been sewn together at the opening and then folded back and top stitched?
  
• what was the alteration that you performed on the cuffs, ie what were they like originally?

The rear darts are a feature more commonly found in older garments but the facts need to be weighed up, eg the top stitching on the interior tie is modern. The stitching is a different colour too, and I'd expect it to match better but perhaps she ran out of thread and used what was to hand. Are all the stitches in the same colour?

Incidentally, I think the feather trim is most likely an addition: it just goes to below the waist doesn't it?

 

Thank you all. I have tackled your list of questions, Nicole.
1. Done a burn test, it is definitely silk.
2. The feather trim and the thread are the same colour as the fabric, so I think they must all be original. I took my photos at night, so that's probably why the thread looked different. In fact, the thread is an identical match to the fabric - dyed together? Done another burn test - the thread is synthetic.
3. The inside of the neckline is bound with the same fabric. The sleeve/armhole seam is also bound this way. The inside sleeve seams are the only raw seams.
4. I have attached a photo of the original hem and facing portion, with neat blind hemming.
5. The belt loops are a rouleau of the fabric, not topstitched but neatly attached with tiny stitches.
6. The interior tie secures to a matching tie on the edge of the opposite side front.
7. There are no other darts, but there is an inverted V section inserted at the base of the sleeve seam, see photo 4.
8. The sleeves are gathered quite fully at the heading which emphasises the shoulders. The shoulders (without sleeves) are only 31 cm (12.5 inches) across, so quite fitted.
9. The garment measured flat - underam - 44 cm (17.5 inches), waist - 46 cm (18 inches), hips - 52 cm (20.5 inches). Original length - 114 cm (45 inches).
10. The sleeve bands are folded back and topstitched. There was a ridge of raw fabric above the band and my guess is that some kind of fabric trim had been cut off.???I just took a tuck in the end of the sleeve ,tucked the band back over it and hem stitched to cover it.
11. The feather trim goes down the fronts and ends level with the tops of the pockets.
12. Also, I just noticed that the centre front is about 14 cm (5.5 inches) longer than the back when it's open. When the interior tie is tied, this causes a draped effect at the front neckline, so the extra length goes into the top.

 

Thanks for the additional information Joanne - you can see from the fabric close ups that it's a luxurious material and nicely finished.

From your descriptions I would date this garment to the last 25 years, with especial regard to the synthetic thread which has only been used fairly recently. Up until about 1990, most threads were a poly cotton mix (pre '60s they're usually pure cotton).

The thread is unlikely to have been dyed to match as a different dye is needed for silk and synthetic fibres but the good match shows that the seamstress has a good eye.

 

Thanks Nicole and everyone else for your time and your valued opinions. It's confusing and I'm still thinking this is older because (a) It could be poly/cotton thread so 60s , or could they have used rayon thread?(or does rayon burn like cotton?) (b) The fabric inserted at the sleeve seam. Seems like a time when they were more economical with their fabrics. Also, (c) I didn't mention but there was quite a bit of foxing ( most I cut off, but still some on the sleeve). I know condition is not an indication of age, but presumably it takes a while for age marks to appear.
Oh, if only they could tell us, or if only each garment came with a ticket to a dated show in the pocket, like a couple I've found!
Thank you so much to everyone for allowing me to pick your brains. Hey Nicole, maybe I'll post you some of the thread!

 

OK, Miss Never Give Up just did another science experiment. I found a reel of antique thread marked "pure silk" and burned it alongside the green thread. They both seem to burn the same, much more quickly than the silk fabric burned, which was what made me think the thread was synthetic. So, IF, the thread is silk, is the verdict the same on the garment?
P.S. Thinking scientifically again(!!!!) I burned some modern polyester thread, which went pfffttt...and disappeared. My green thread did not do this.

 

Hi Joanne,

The thread is unlikely to be silk but it could be cotton - synthetic fibres burn very distinctively so it sounds like it's definitely not polyester.

The sleeve inserts are a classic technique to increase the size of the sleeve - perhaps the owner put on weight or a new owner was larger? If you'd like a sign that a narrow width (ie older) fabric was used, look for a triangular insert near the hem, probably on the back of the skirt near one side. Early 20th century fabric manufacturers did not have the technology to make wide fabrics like they do now, so flared skirts were a challenge for them. They cut as much as they could out of the width and then inserted a small piece to make it up.

Foxing is a kind of mildew that comes from poor storage, especially when plastic is used and silks are particularly prone to it. Although it's associated with age, the spots can appear fairly quickly: a decade or two will suffice under the right conditions. We see a lot of foxing in Australia due to humidity and well-meaning people storing their clothes in those awful plastic dry cleaning bags.

You're welcome to bring the garment to me to look at: photos are inherently limited and there's nothing like holding it in your hand. I trust your instincts as a dealer, when you say that it feels older. The photos do make it look very nice and shiny though!

 

Thanks for your time and patience with me! Lots of food for thought and a wealth of knowledge shared.