Help with style & date of 3 hats, please

Hi,

I love hearing about what others are experiencing with selling hats, it helps me too, to see the changes in the marketplace. I am looking closer at that photo of the inside of the hat,....and now do agree that it is earlier than I first thought....looks very 1940s, NOT early 1950s (I changed me mind...harummp).....and the hat could perhaps even be mid to late 1930s. It has a very sporty style that was popular in the 1930s and all through the 1940s. The inner construction looks more 1930's also, so thanks for showing the inside.

And yes, larger size hats do seem to sell, and I missed noticing that you mentioned the size in the earlier post.

I will be the one to say I don't think the ivory vinyl has a very Carnaby Street look to it....although I certainly do see why some think it does...but it falls just short of being truly MOD to me.....Maybe "Sears hat dpt. goes Carnaby"...but they sort of still gave it a middle America look with that tiny bow and conservative toque silhouette.

But yes they are cute, the orange is a great color, and the black one is classic forty sporty.

B

 

Hi,

I forgot to mention a key thing to remember when shopping for a hat by size.....that a size tag does not always indicate the true inner circumference measurement (this is the case very frequently with vintage hats). A hat can be tagged size 23 and measure 1 or 2 inches less on the inside. A Jackie O pillbox could be tagged size 22 but the inside circumference can be 20" or even 19" around. A hat meant to sit on the back of the head can have a misleading size tag if you are hoping it measures 23" around just because the tag has a 23. The tag really indicates that the hat was made to fit a lady with a size 23 head, and fit her comfortably and sit correctly on the head as designed by the milliner. It could have even been made on a size 23 hatblock but have an inner circumference of 22" or 21" or even less depending on the style of the hat.

Just something to look for when shopping. Best to ask the seller to measure if it is a concern. But remember that many vintage and antique hats were not meant to sit straight on the head directly above the ears (which is where you measure your headsize).

B

 

Barbara, thank you for weighing in on the first hat again--on seeing photos of the interior. I love hats, myself, but am so very NOT good at dating them yet. I am learning, though, thanks to you and Chris and several others here who know much more about them than I do....

And you make an excellent point about size. I always not only state the size on the tag, if present, but I also measure and state the circumference of the hat, since, as you point out, they are not all meant to sit at the same place on one's head, so the measurement around the inside at the base is not going to always be the same as the hat size. So, I will explain in my description, for example, that the hat is meant to sit higher on the head than the forehead, or at the back of the head, or whatever, so the circumference is not the same as the measurement that corresponds to the size of the hat.

 

You know Barbara, I scrolled back up to the white hat after reading your comments and it was weird, I could immediately see what you are saying. I looked at it a little differently and saw a completely different hat. I guess this is a good advert for fresh eyes and being open to learning.

Take of the bow and add some goggles or small visor on front and it is way mod (IMO) but I can 100% see what you are saying.

Having said that, I still really love it - someone is going to jump on that hat.

 

Thank you for posting the interior shots of the black straw hat Alice. Yes, I thought it was earlier than suggested - mid to late 1930s. I have rarely seen that extended lower construction on early 50s hats. Barbara, is there a milliner's term for that section which is designed to hold the hat to the head?

 

Not Barbara here--LOL--but in 1950s' hats, where you find the interior cap with the pointy earpieces (how's that for technical terms?), I've been advised they are called "placement caps."

I've never seen quite this rounded type of construction (and again, thanks to both of you, Christina and Barbara, for your dating expertise), but I believe the purpose is pretty much the same--something to make placing and keeping on the head easier.

Alice, with the first hat being from the 30s, it should sell well! I have not been able to keep any 30s' hats I've had "on the shelves" for very long at all, regardless of style.

 

Hi,

If you mean specifically the first black hat and its construction, that hat does not have an extended lower piece...that is an optical illusion. The technique used on that black hat is thus: After making the simple round crown, the milliner sews on the brim on setting it at an angle, sewing it up above the "normal" back edge, making it appear as if there is a separate piece in back or underneath. It has nothing to do with keeping the hat on the head, and the hat sits normally.

If you are asking about a separate piece .....You may be referring to what is sometimes called a bandeau, or half bandeau, and up until the 30's, some makers had their own trade names for them and they were sold pre made so milliners could sew them into the hat. These were almost always added to the hat after it was made, and were used in different decades for different reasons....usually meant to tilt the hat at the required fashionable angle or to be a place to poke the hatpins through, or to adjust the hat's headsize.

The "optical illusion" technique used in that black hat was still occasionally used through the 1950's, and is still used today, mostly in those fancy glam church hats you see in the African American hat shops today.

Placement caps is correct. Clutch cap...Demi cap....There are other terms too, but that is one of them.

B