Please help dating Ferragamo shoes

[Thomas]

Hello,

I recently bought two pairs of Ferragamo shoes. I browsed the threads here and also the label resource. It seems when it comes to Ferragamo, dating the shoes isn't really easy. I don't want to break the rules to post only one item per thread. But in this case I have a question for two pairs of shoes from the same maker and form around the same era (I guess). So I thought it would be more comfortable, especially for the comparison between both, not to separate them into two threads. I hope I have your understanding, otherwise please tell me.

From the label resource I understand that the words "Creations" or "Salvatore" might be important for dating Ferragamo shoes. But here I get a bit confused with my shoes.
These black sling back pumps sport the "Creations" label. They have a small stiletto heel (which Ferragamo used quite earlyas I read) with a leather heeltip.



The second pair is this coloured suede sling back peep toe. It has the "Salvatore" label and also a leather heeltip. It isof the same design as these shoes from Victoria & Albert Museum
http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O136671/pair-of-shoes-ferragamo-salvatore/
So the design might be that early as around 1945 but the label indicates a date of making after Mr. Ferragamos death? What I read here is also, that Ferragamo kept making some designs for ages with a change in some details.


Interesting details for dating Ferragamo shoes might also be until when they used still leather for the heeltip. Also until when they did this style of insole design at the back with the additional colored leather piece for sling back shoes. And I wonder what we can make of the handwritten number inside the shoes. Isn't it some kind of production number, maybe stating the craftsman and a consecutive number?

So anyone might help me with dating these?
Thank you very much!

 

[joules]

Nice Ferragamos!

Jonathan will probably be along soon.

Just going to add this to the mix for eye candy, from the current show at the Palm Springs Art Museum, Killer Heels.

The details reminded me of my photo of these awesome 40s

Ferragamo wedges.

 

[Thomas]

Thank you for that. I heard and read about that exhibition and I bought the book "Killer Heels". Sadly I live to far away, in Germany. But instead I saw the exhibition "Shoes: Pleasure & Pain" at the Victoria & Albert Museum, London.

In fact the connecting detail between the golden leather stripes on your picture looks likewise made as the rim detail on my black ones. Both also have the "Creations" label. But irritating instead is for me that the back of the insole has no additional leather piece as mine. Ah, questions over questions... ;-)

 

[joules]

Yes, I felt lucky to visit the exhibit twice, so far. There was a copy of the book, set out on a table for all to peruse, along with other shoe books, so I had a chance to look through it. Nice that you have a copy!

Certain similarities are present, for sure.
The black joining on yours is a whipstitch type joining, and on the red museum ones, it appears to be a different variety of joining stitch.
In the Killer Heels book, what exact year is given for the gold and red wedges?

Thanks for your post, Thomas! I love Ferragamos. Waiting to hear from Jonathan...

 

[Jonathan]

You are right about Ferragamo repeating styles and designs. The black pair has the stiletto but the toe is almond shaped - typical of 1956/57 as the new style of pointed toe/stiletto heeled shoe comes into fashion. The other pair could date almost anywhere from as early as c. 1948 until c. 1956, the peep toe and thicker heel in combination was around throughout that time. Ferragamo was doing patchwork uppers during the war in Italy and afterwards, but the war shoes are wedge heeled or platform, as are most of the immediate post war shoes. He liked thicker walking heels a lot, in fact I think he is better known for his sturdy heels than his stilettos. If I had to pick a date, I would go for c. 1949-50 on the patchwork pair.

 

[EndlessAlley]

 

[Thomas]

You are right about Ferragamo repeating styles and designs. The black pair has the stiletto but the toe is almond shaped - typical of 1956/57 as the new style of pointed toe/stiletto heeled shoe comes into fashion. The other pair could date almost anywhere from as early as c. 1948 until c. 1956, the peep toe and thicker heel in combination was around throughout that time.

Thank you, Jonathan.
I might be right because I have that information from a reply from you here somewhere. ;)
I thought a bit like that too. But what might speak against the colored being older than the black ones is the label: The black ones' label says "Creations", the coloured ones' label says already "Salvatore". Shouldn't be the "Salvatore" label be younger than the "Creations" label? And can one confirm the information I read somewhere that "Salvatore" was used only after Mr. Ferragamo's death? The label source here shows also a "Salvatore" label said to come from a 1950's shoe.

Are there others here owning this old shoes from Ferragamo? I would like to compare the handwritten numbering inside the shoes to see if we can make something of that. It is not about trying to date a pair of shoes to the exact year (that won't be possible I think) but just to have other information one can rely on for dating beyond the style and the label.

I will begin here with mine:
This pair has the numbering "IN2041 18SX 6%B"

This pair has the numbering "IN8060 7SX 6Bi"

I have just a slight idea about the numbering: First column might be the the model (or production?) number, then might follow the craftsman (or shoe last?) number, last is of course the size including width.

 

[BonniesVintageClothesLine]

Both pairs are lovely!

 

[sewingmachinegirl]

Oh I love Ferragamo shoes ! I was lucky enough to go to the Ferragamo Museum in Florence years ago, as part of a private viewing for the attendees of the Costume Colloquium conference that year, and It was just amazing, so many gorgeous shoes from decades past, swoon!

 

[Jonathan]

I remember the 'Creations' and 'Salvatore' discussion came up once before. It might be a difference between made in his atelier and made off-the-rack, which is why it appears more frequently after his death in 1963. Not sure how to explain it otherwise because there is nothing about those shoes that looks post 1963 to me - the leather top lift, the type of finishing, the shape of the heel, the peep toe essentially disappears in the late 1950s and doesn't show up again until the mid-late 70s, but these just don't look 70s to me... I don't know.

 

[Pinkcoke]

I am pretty sure the patchwork pair appear in the Salvatore Ferragamo book, where shoes held in the Ferragamo collection are dated (circa) and the inside marks are also noted in the details, so it's worth looking at if you can get hold of a copy. Unfortunately I only borrowed a copy from the uni library a few years ago (it is a huge tome) so I can't check right now. You might be able to see, by comparing the manufacturer's codes if it were the original design or a later re-make perhaps. There is something off about the patchwork pair for me. Although I agree the style is 50s, I have only ever had this label on post 1950's examples. The lining colour matches 50's examples, the silver colour buckle is more unusual for Ferragamo shoes (it's usually gold, to match the label), the shape of the buckle right for 50's to early 60s though. The main sticking point for me is the printing of the label looks newer than 50s to me. Older Ferragamo labels are well impressed, you can see the gold goes into the stamped shape, this is a quite a light surface printing, more like that I have on 1960s+ Ferragamos. I suspect these are either from around 1960 - I have seen some odd looking sandals from this period, because the fashion is for a pointed toe, and that can't be achieved in a sandal, or they could be a custom order reproduction, as they are faithful to the earlier period design, but the label is newer, yet the manufacturer's markings are handwritten, which past the point they start using stamped markings, usually indicates custom made to me. It could be a good pair to contact the Ferragamo archives about and see if they can/will tell you anything about them.

I've never seen the style of the black pair before, but it is worth noting they appear to have been dyed - quite well, but they may not have been black originally.

Here are my Ferragamo shoes:

1940s Ferragamo's Creations for Saks Fifth Ave patchwork leather wedge sandals:


These looked very close to a pair of 1930's shoes I saw in the book mentioned above, however due to the thin heel I plumped for early 1950s revival in the end...though I'm still not sure. The threaded leather 'ribbons' are original, the laces are not.


1950s Ferragamo's Creations for Harvey Nichols Navy blue leather and suede contrast court shoes:


1950s Ferragamo's Creations 'Emma' gold kid evening sandals (This is the only original box I have):


late 1950s Ferragamo's Creations lizard skin stilettos:


late 1960's Salvatore Ferragamo contrast leather court shoes:


late 1960's/early 1970's Salvatore Ferragamo cross-strap shoes:


mid 1970's Salvatore Ferragamo leather court shoes:

 

[Thomas]

First let me thank all of you for taking the time to reply and your efforts. It is highly appreciated form my side and really helpful. Maybe I love vintage stuff also for the little deduction game that goes with it.

Jonathan had a good point with the atelier and off-the-rack idea for the label. I will try to that idea a bit further. And I also don't think they are a remake. Would they (or did they) really something like a facsimile, meaning using leather heel tips nails with three nails in the 1970's for example? By the way: I bought both from the same eBay seller and they are the same size. So that give me the idea that they are form around the same era worn by the same woman.

Thank you for the hint to the book, Melanie. I definately will try to get a copy, that should at least be a bit helpful. The patchwork design was used for different styles as I found out by online search. Therefor also the included the link to the collection of the Victoria & Albert Museum in my first post here. But if lucky I will find this exact style in the book.

Thank you also for the helpful pictures! Especially the numbering is interesting: Your first pair IN 5123 fits perfectly in between my two shoes. The other two already begin with different letters.

The silver buckle looks like being from aluminium or zinc, the black ones have a golden buckle. I don't know what to make of that.
It is in fact like that: The "Creations" label is imprinted deeper, obviously with more force, than the "Salvatore" label. I can follow the argument on that. Also the later gold color is also more shiny then on the black shoes.

For the black ones I definately can say they have not been fully dyed black. I too see the spots on the back of the insole and I also believe that someone tried to dye them there later. But I was able to spy a bit under the outer sole and the insole. There the upper leather is also black.

This "spying" was only possible by some kind of deformation of the shoes (which also made these two "gaps" I spyed into). The insole shows of some kind of shoe stretcher which must have looked like this little beast:

I think these were specially made for sandals or slingbacks. Inserted it will let your shoe look like this (lifting the ball area) because of the strong steel spring:

And after "excessive" use your shoe will stay like that even without the stretcher inserted (I bet the vamp is stretched also):

So don't use these nasty stretchers anymore on your beloved vintage shoes.

Ok, so next will be browsing the Ferragamo book for dating and for general admiring his styles.
Thanks again!

 

[Pinkcoke]

It sounds as though the black pair were just re-coloured then. I agree the seperation of the sole is due to long term use of shoe stretchers. I always remove them when I receive shoes with them kept in. Stuffing with newspaper and storing in the desired shape can help to return the original arch a little.
I have added my earlier examples for comparison the the same post above.

 

[Thomas]

Such a great collection, Melanie! Thank you for taking the effort to show them.
My black ones come the golden evening sandals closest. Not only the numbering is quite near (IN 2041 to IN 2054) but I would say they sport the same heel and even would be made on the same last. So by all that I know so far I would date my black ones to the 1950's and my coloured ones later, around 1960's maybe. I will see if the book can reveal more.
You also made a nice timeline with your shoes. Just one additional question: Which ones of yours have an original leather heel tip and which have a rubber tip?

P.S.: A 10B was certainly a big size back then in the 1950's. ;)

 

[Pinkcoke]

They all had leather tips until the 1960s shoes, when they tend to be plastic/resin rubber/nylon. The Brown suede stilettos had the tips replaced with nylon before I got them (badly :( it changed the shape of them and now they look like hooves, but then somebody was clearly wearing these)
The heel tip material is only useful in dating if you are sure it hasn't been changed. I get missing heel tips replaced (if you've ever seen the earlier heels missing the leather, they won't stand up properly on a screw sticking out the heel!) and my cobbler will do it in leather if I ask - the only difference is cost, which, presumably, is why they stopped capping shoes in leather a long while ago. The only exception does tend to be Italian shoes, which seem to go on using leather soles until the 1980s.

The 10B is a joke, I paid more than I would usually for those thinking I could have a wearable pair of Ferragamos - but they fit like a 9, maybe even 8.5B absolute vanity sizing! It's not that I don't fit a 1950's 10B either - I have some really well fitting 1940s shoes in a 10A and go up to 11 1/2 AA in a c.1960 winklepicker. They are just really short and high cut. :(

The box for the gold shoes repeats the lettered code on the end, so I think it's same to assume this is the style code:

It's looking like the combination of letters might be the year then, and the numbers that follow are the style number, which is possibly created in order through the year - seeing how much higher the number on the pointed court shoes is compared to the rounder styles..

I thought it worth mentioning the contrast leather heel sock isn't exclusive to Ferragamo shoes - I see it most often on high quality 1950s footwear - I think it was another aspect of fashion when open heel footwear was popular and more visible due to evening skirt lengths.