Puzzled!!!

littlebluecottage

littlebluecottage

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Hey guys, I'm rather puzzled on this crepe de chine dress.

The zip is German and it has handmade shoulder pads, which are bumpy.

any ideas on a date??? I can't place it, it was in a lot with 1930s clothing but I think t may be older...

Also, could it have been a wedding dress, any thoughts greatly appreciated, as always x


 
That zipper pull looks deco and the shoulder pads you're describing sound consistent with late 30s.

The silhouette isn't right for the 20s and I'd expect more detailing on anything earlier. Mid to late 30s sounds right to me, maybe early 40s since that zipper could have been pulled out of a seamstress's stash. I don't think there's enough structure for it to be a wedding gown of that era. My first thought is dressing gown.
 
That diamond gusset is most often seen in later 1940s - 1950s dresses, when small shoulder pads were still used. So I am leaning toward 1950 with a belt.

Also - is the zip on the right side, or is that the back of the dress? Not that zippers weren't occasionally put on the right side, just usually left.

You say the zip is German. Anything on it like Western Zone or US Zone?

Hollis
 
I agree that it seems very late 40s into very early 50s. Due both to the gussets and the side zip as well as the small shoulder pads. The gussets are primarily a 50's thing, I think, so if it's 40s it has be be very, very late. I have seen them into the very early 60s, but usually when I see them my first thought is "somewhere in the 50s." But the length and those shoulder pads do say 40s to me, so I bet Hollis has it pretty well nailed at 1950!
 
I agree with Hollis on this. Very late '40's to early '50's. I have seen zippers on the right - in fact I have a '40's dress with a zipper on the right but I agree it's unusual. I don't think the buttons go down the back but try it on that way and see what you think. Also agree it had a belt.
 
Thank you very much to all.

Hi Maggie - silly question maybe, but why do you think a dressing gown? Would a dressing gown had such a full skirt?

Just looked at it again, not sure if the buttons should go down the back...any way of telling for sure??

I thought the length would be too long for anything past 1945...but if it is meant for indoor wear...

Hi Hollis- the zip says " OPTI" on one side and "Made in Germany" on the other side of the puller.



There is also some unusual detail half way down the sleeves- anyone know what this sewing technique is called?:


I have also noticed that inside at the waist in some kind of tape, looks like a upholstery item!:
 
What an interesting dress!

The skirt suggests late '30s-early '50s.
The diamond inserts suggest late '40s-early '50s.
The zipper suggests '30s-'40s.
The small buttons suggest late '30s-40s.
The sleeve detailing suggests '30s.
The waist tape suggests '40s-50s.

I think this was made by a dressmaker, they often hold onto materials like zippers and can use older techniques and detailing, especially if a customer requests them.

Weighing up the evidence, I'm going to go with late '40s. I would like to see what it looks like back to front though, as those small rows of buttons usually (but not always) go up the back. I've seen some pretty plain wedding dresses, so I think it is bridal.

Nicole

Update - a note about waist tapes, they're often seeing in high quality and couture garments, and are secured before doing up the zip, to take the weight of the dress so that it sits properly and the zip goes up easily - I'm not describing this well so I hope you know what I mean.

Also, there may be a specific word for the sleeve treatment, but it's a kind of open-work.
 
It could be a wedding dress and from the late 1930's. They buttons close loop left to right? I'd like to see the dress turned round. Gussets were very common in the 1930's used often to ease out the sleeve under-arm but also as a pattern feature e.g.coats. I owned a black 1930's wool crepe coat with gussets. The use of gussets in the 1950's were also a feature. I agree the detail on the sleeve is made to look like faggotting.
 
agreed on the late 40s for dating. The sleeve detail is deffo fagotting. The idea of which to attach two seperate pieces of fabric together ( its so difficult to describe). I've seen a few 40s velvet dresses with very similar sleeves to this.
 
Thanks everyone, I think it must be 1930s, a very plain wedding dress. If it i German it may have belonged to someone from one of the German protestant faiths, who favoured simple styles for religious ceremonies like weddings?
 
Hi littlebluecottage - I'm not sure where you get '30s - most of us agree it's more recent. I like the idea of it being a wedding dress but the zipper being from Germany doesn't mean the dress necessarily is - the zipper is '30s and was probably available elsewhere in Europe if not abroad, heck I've seen German zippers like this in Australia.

Dating a dress is a matter of piecing all the pieces of the puzzle together to come up with the most likely conclusion. I think it's very unlikely to be '30s.

Nicole
 
Hey Nicole, I was looking at what you said in your previous post, also what Vertugarde is saying re gussets.

The lot in which this dress came with had a lot of German labels - some of which were more recent (70s-80s) - I forgot to mention that, sorry!
So, with the zip, I made the assumption that this dress also was German in origin, and becuase the dress is plain, it reminded me of reformation traditions which match the German culture.

I've been researching and found that Wedding dresses in Europe during the 1940s were often recycled, collage lace dresses (lace wasn't rationed), made from parachute silk or were heirloom/family items, so that is why I am placing it 1930s, late 1930s, as it doesn't look recycled.

1940s European items are scarce too...

Any other thoughts since?
 
I've been following this post and what I think is trying to be conveyed is thus:
The construction shows that of a highly trained seamstress and shows multiple techniques spanning two decades. Any trained seamstress likely has stores of zippers and fabrics which could be used any time to create dress. A large lot of zippers and fabric could have been purchased at one time and the seamstress could pull from this stock over many years, so this has no true bearing on the dating or even the place of construction on a handmade garment.

What should determine the dating on this dress is the construction and style techniques. Since many of the styling techniques are evidence of later dating, such as the late 1940's when this length became popular again, shoulder pads became very small and underarm gusseting in dresses was being applied, it can be concluded that this dress was made using the seamstresses favorite techniques, new and old, to construct a dress of her own or modified design. I would never expect a seamstress to leave all techniques behind in the dust in favor of brand new techniques. So just becuase you see some of these older techniques in the dress, the newer techniques are your red flag that the dress may not be as old as you suspect.

I aslo see late 1940's in this dress for the same reasons as are described by the others. I have also handled many, many, many vintage wedding gowns, and everything I've handled that is older than the early 1950's has been button back and no zipper. Not to say that this did not exist, but in my experience I don't see this as a 1930's wedding dress.
 
Here we are girls, the dress with the buttons down the back.

Its a rainy day here in Ireland and I had to take the pictures indoors. So the light wasn't too great! Apologies for that.



 
It is full length, then? I could not tell before; it looked in your earlier photos like it was more a mid calf length. Can't see much in your new photos, as they're too small, but the silhouette looks "right." Could be a wedding dress, then....
 
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