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Recognise this label?

Discussion in 'PUBLIC Vintage Fashion - Ask Questions Get Answers' started by catwalkcreative, Oct 11, 2009.

  1. Thank you Coral. That's great to know. Can't get on Etsy at the moment due to maintenance work but will have a re-think. :)
  2. TinTrunk

    TinTrunk Registered Guest

    That's so pretty - and such a gorgeous, subtle ice-blue! In my experience is quite hard to find vintage underwear that's not a pink/salmon colour so I reckon the colour is not that common.

    And looking at the fabric close-up, that does look like rayon to me. There's a certain crispness and brightness to the weave, although I'm more than happy to be corrected on this. When I asked a woman at the Walsall museum about how she discerns rayon from silk she told me rayon felt 'slimey'! :puzzled:

    Not sure if that's helpful or not! It certainly baffled me!
  3. It's a difficult one I know. I'm leaning more and more towards rayon actually. Especially since this dates from the 40's when silk was probably difficult to come by. I've mentioned both fabrics in the description. I'll bring it over to Beth's on Thursday. Perhaps we can have a vote on it then? :)
  4. vertugarde

    vertugarde Alumni

    I know there has been this Utility Label debate but all the authoratative references show CC as meaning 'Civilian Clothing.'

    I posted this last year;

    'From the book 'Knickers' by Rosemary Hawthorne;

    'The trademark of the War years is the Utility label found attached to all manufactured clothing from 1942, through the post-war years, up to 1953. The designer of the well know CC41 label was Reginald Shipp who worked as a commercial artist for an old-established firm, Hargreaves, near Oxford Street. They were designers and suppliers of manufacturers' labels: their work covered retail, clothing, club and uniform labels. In 1940 Hargreaves, amongst several other companies, were asked to submit designs for the Utility mark that the Board of Trade wished to issue in 1941. Reginald Shipp's design was selected and he received, along with his company, a letter of commendation. The Board of Trade also awarded Mr Shipp a personal prize of £5. He lived in Barnes, London and died in 1962. It is quite likely therefore that Shipp designed this slightly later label which could be used after 1945, when rationing was still in force, on a luxury garment. This label depicts the full circle and double lines either side. The label would have indicated perhaps that better fabric, more luxurious, had been used, or more material. It seems that clothes in a luxury category carried something like 25% more purchase tax, Obviously it meant there were very few garments around that bore this mark - better class corsets appear to occasionally boast the luxury mark because they used many restrictive materials - but after 1949 CC41 controls on clothing were lifted and Utility labels were not added to garments.'

    Go to;


    The label wasn't intended for export. I have come across a list of of British exported goods from the post-war years and wool as a fabric or fibre commodity was exported. There is no mention of garments.'

    I disagree with Jonathan that 'CC41 became associated with dull, detailess, government-controlled clothing.' I've owned several CC41 dresses and lingerie and dull and detailess they were not.

    I would agree that a lot of Council (Public Housing) Housing in Britain isn't great. I guess Jonathan you are probably referring to post-war council housing. I lived in three different council houses with my parents when younger. Actually it might interest people to know that 'Council Housing' in Britain began in 1875. From Wikipedia;

    'The Artisan's and Labourers' Dwellings Improvement Act 1875 was an Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom designed by Richard Cross, Home Secretary during Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli's second Conservative Government, which involved allowing local councils to buy up areas of slum dwelling in order to clear it and then rebuild. Part of Disraeli's social reform aimed at his "elevation of the people" (the working class) policy stated in his 1872 speeches at Manchester and Crystal Palace, when campaigning for the 1874 General Election against William Ewart Gladstone.'

    Finally, I understand the 'slimy' description for this rayon fabric but maybe slippery would be an alternative.
  5. Thank you very much indeed. :) I've had quite a few history lessons because if this pretty little slip. I appreciate your time and yes, 'slippery' does sound better doesn't it? :sunshine:
  6. TinTrunk

    TinTrunk Registered Guest

    That's really helpful, vertugarde. I recently listed a pair of CC41 gauntlets and stated that the CC41 label on clothes ended in 1949, and then got worried because I noticed a lot of sources saying it ended in 1952. But I'm sure 1952 was when ALL rationing ended, and there were lots of changes to rationing policies in the interim.

    I agree also that CC41 garments were not 'dull and detailess.' And I've mentioned that on another thread. I think what Jonathan meant was that they were considered in retrospect that way, being associated with the war years and the memories of deprivation.

    Another vote for 'slippery' rather than 'slimy' - bad choice of words in my view!

    Louise - you're on. I'll bring my loupe so we can inspect it closely!
  7. vertugarde

    vertugarde Alumni

  8. I just LOVE the red frock! :wub: Isn't that the same one shown in Lou Taylor's book, Through the Looking Glass? Looks familiar. :)
  9. Midge

    Midge Super Moderator Staff Member

    I have a book with some 1940s photos of CC41 clothing in it, and I must say, some of these dresses look pretty smart - I'd just love to have them, though the photos are only black and white. I read somewhere else that some of those clothes were quite colorful - just like the dress & coat at the V&A (my, my, that coat does look yummy!).

  10. Jonathan

    Jonathan VFG Member

    This is late to come back to but I should clarify since there seems to be some confusion...
    Clothes rationing ended in Britain in 1949, The CC41 Utility program continued until 1952 for clothes and 1953 for furniture, food rationing ended in 1954. Think of the CC41 utility program as separate from rationing, the two are not conjoined, other than the fact that CC41 was created to ensure that those ratoined to a limited number of garments got quality garments to wear for the duration of the war. CC41 is actually a guarantee of quality production primarily for the working classes who needed to use the same number of coupons that a wealthy Brit has to use for the same garment - but a tailored wool dress made to order and a cheap off the rack rayon frock were the same number of coupons, so the CC41 program guaranteed quality to compensate for this disimilarity. The examples the V&A have in their collection are the samples made up by important English designers to promote the CC41 program in the fall of 1942 - they are not the REAL CC41 garments you find real people wearing, in fact of the something like 49 garments designed, only 13 of them were put into production (or thereabouts - I have forgotten the exact amount). The CC41 metal buttons for example were never put into production, although they can be found on the sample suits and coats. There are many many references to people at the time who felt that CC41 clothing was dull and detailess and as it followed all the austerity regulations for lack of pockets, ornamentations, pleating etc. it was detailess - but so was all clothing in comparison to the frills of prewar and fullness of postwar clothing. When I talked with Reginald Shipp's nephew while I was researching my book Forties Fashion, he suggested the 'Double Elevens' label might have been brought in to replace the CC41 label because of the rejection of CC41 labelled clothes as wartime clothing.
  11. Jonathan

    Jonathan VFG Member

    Lynne - do you have a reference for which newspaper that came out of? It looks almost like a news service bulletin - something that would appear on the wire for any number of newspapers to use...
  12. vertugarde

    vertugarde Alumni

    I find it hard to believe that museums like the Victoria & Albert , the Imperial War Museum and many other British museums have incorrectly referred to CC as Civilian Clothing.
  13. Jonathan

    Jonathan VFG Member

    Believe it you must... no museum has the correct or complete story. The snippet Lynne posted is the only wartime period reference to identifying what CC meant, there is no official document available that I and many other researchers could find at any museum or archives dating from the wartime that defines the term. There are only postwar memories of what it stood for and that is always a dangerous source. I am sure there is some document somewhere probably written to Reginald Shipp that defines the logo's meaning and that it must contain the letters CC and the number 41, but nobody seems to know where that letter is. It is also often mis-reported that the utility program began in 1941 according to the logo date, but that was when it was planned, it did not go into action until well into 1942. The CC41 stamp also appeared on domestic textiles - diapers, black out curtain yardage, tablecloths, as well as furniture - so it was used on many non civilian clothing items.
  14. hustleboy32

    hustleboy32 Registered Guest

    Not sure what that label is

    I'm not quite sure what that label is. Somebody let me know.

    edited by admin...please be careful in giving outside links...read the board rules above.

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