Steven Corn Furs - likely "Lippi" coat - some rather involved questions

[kittysfish]

Hi all. Yet one more set of questions, with Long background. After much online research & interacting with Fish & Wildlife, I am confused about how to understand and approach this conundrum.

The facts -
1. This coat below is one more my uncle left behind, that my sister really values & would like to receive from his estate.

2. As per the tag, it was created by Steven Corn Furs, which (from what I could search) appears to have been an established & respected furrier with a reputation for quality and customer service. They had locations in New York, New Jersey, and possibly one other place, until they sold their business to Maximilian furs only a couple years ago (super unfortunately for me).

3. The coat was created 1981 or after (the tag looked 90s onward to me), as the business went from being "Corn Furs" in pre-1981 to being "Steven Corn Furs" in 1981 or shortly thereafter. It would also be before 2017, as the tag lists only 2 stores & they opened a 3rd in 2017.

4. From everything I've searched out here on VFG & online elsewhere, I believed this coat to be "lippi".

5. Places throughout the internet claim that "lippi" is legal, and multiple current mainstream retailers - Marc Kaufman Furs, & Estate Furs - have expensive "lippi" coats on their websites. (*below)

6. Some sites - including VFG - have identified "lippi" as the Chinese Leopard Cat (Prionailurus bengalensis). The VFG page says "Most [cats] are listed as endangered species but Chinese Leopard Cats are allowed to be traded with regulation, proper permitting, and are listed on Appendix II..."

7. When I contacted Fish & Wildlife Services to be certain interstate purchase of this coat by an heir would be legal, they informed me that if it were actually Chinese Leopard Cat, no, it would not be legal, as the Chinese Leopard Cat is protected under the 1976 Endangered Species Act, and cannot be sold interstate. The only exception is if the cat has been bred with enough generations of domestic cats to no longer qualify as a Chinese Leopard Cat. (But it is legal to inherit, possess, display, or donate specimens protected under the ESA, provided they were lawfully acquired, according to the expert.)

8. The subject matter expert with whom I corresponded at Fish and Wildlife Services informed me that the [identity & reputation of a] manufacturer is inconsequential, and it is not out of the question for manufacturers post-ESA to import illegal cat furs for their coats. This was surprising to me.


So. My questions:

1. Is there any other legal fur this coat could be that I'm missing? (Oncillas & Southern Tiger Cats aren't legal either, it looked like, & didn't quite match anyway.) I still find it hard to believe Steven Corn Furs would knowingly import & sell an illegal fur, so suspect it may be the "bred for the fur industry" designer cat approach.

2. In the databases some of you have access to (@furwise ?), do you have any mention of Steven Corn selling this kind of fur, &/or what fur they identified it as, &/or if they gave any information on its origin to demonstrate legality? (Ie: if they did what other retailers claim, that Lippi is "bred for the fur industry", as the FWS specialist commented on as a possibility.)

3. Long shot - does anyone here have knowledge of how to contact anyone from the past Steven Corn Furs business to ask questions directly? I have used every email address I could find, & their successor (Maximilian) did not get back to me.

Okay. That's all (o_O)


Thank you for the frequent help!
Hollie

 

[furwise]

Hi Hollie,

This coat here is older than the 80s, and looks like it dates somewhere between the late 40s to early 50s. The furrier name looks like it's on a garment bag which was likely given to the customer after cleaning and storage. If there is a label sewn inside on the lining that states that name, it still would have been added sometime later after cleaning or storage.

Regarding the fur type; it looks like Lippi cat, however, there are other sub species of small leopard cats from Asia that look similar. They aren't really leopards and they're not house cats but are referred to as both because of their similarity in appearance and smaller size. Lippi cat is from China. Due to similarity in appearance one would need to obtain proper documentation and permitting to be able to trade commercially.

If you want to learn more about the furrier beyond the information you've gleaned so far, you would have to search the wide web or find a paper trail which might lead you to more information. The value in furs though comes from how prized the fur itself is, how much is used, and the craftsmanship; not so much the name of the furrier, unless the name is from someone well known.

 

[kittysfish]

Thank you again, @furwise, for your input. I much appreciate the information.

Your perception appears to be exactly right - although the executor did not make clear to us that he was sending a picture of a garment bag, not a tag inside the coat, the name of the Steven Corn Furs photograph he sent says "spotted coat bag." I had entirely missed that.

My only interest in contacting Steven Corn Furs was to get further clarification on the manufacture of this coat, which appears to be moot now based on your assessment of the age of the coat and the garment bag label not pertaining to the original maker. I will see about asking the executor for any further information he can see & share on the coat.

Besides CITES permits, which FWS clarified are only needed for international sale and do not apply within the US, they informed me that "If a species is protected under the ESA as Endangered, there are no exemptions that allow interstate sale other than if that item is an antique (over 100 years old) and was lawfully imported." You mentioned other permitting required for legal commercial trade of species like Lippi that resemble protected species - were you referring to original CITES permits showing import info for legality? Or the documentation required to prove it is an antique & legally acquired, to be eligible for sale with a special permit? Or is there other permitting you're aware of beyond CITES & antiques that I haven't yet heard about? Either way, I am unfortunately not currently aware of any papers or other documentation on this coat, unless the executor finds something he previously missed.

Thank you for your time & help on this (yet again!). If I come up with anything further that is worthwhile, I'll check in again.

Hollie

 

[kittysfish]

P.S. One last general question about posting - I just saw a notification that my original post had been edited by a moderator, because only VFG members are allowed to post links, apparently even if links in a message are not attempting to sell or endorse an item.
I have really tried to abide by the guidelines I read for posting questions, and just wanted to find out where I would have learned that was not allowed? I didn't see it readily on the pages here I looked through (the Q&A).

Thank you
Hollie

 

[The Vintage Vendeuse]

P.S. One last general question about posting - I just saw a notification that my original post had been edited by a moderator, because only VFG members are allowed to post links, apparently even if links in a message are not attempting to sell or endorse an item.
I have really tried to abide by the guidelines I read for posting questions, and just wanted to find out where I would have learned that was not allowed? I didn't see it readily on the pages here I looked through (the Q&A).

Thank you
Hollie

From the Forum Rules:
4) Registered Guests are not allowed to offer items for sale, or link to their selling sites, commercial web sites, blogs or social media, or link to items for sale even if not their own. Only dues-paying VFG Members may do this.

I did not see your original link, did it go to any of the above?

 

[furwise]

Ok, so let me go a bit backwards. Don’t feel bad about your link being removed. I didn’t do it or see it but it happens anytime a registered guest who is not a VFG trade member posts one.

Next up;
CITES is the Convention on International Trade of Endangered Species, and manages the allowance of international trading.
FWS is The US Fish and wildlife service; and is responsible for monitoring, managing, and putting regulations into place to help protect fish, wildlife, and plants.
If a species is listed as having protection status within FWS, you can check CITES to see what countries that species is protected in and for how long. If you cannot show documentation that shows what you have is not what is listed to be protected, then it will be considered to be protected, and it will not be legally allowed to be traded commercially domestically or internationally.

 

[MagsRags]

it will not be legally allowed to be traded commercially domestically or internationally.

Caryn, does that rule out a family member receiving the coat as part of their inheritance? It doesn't sound like any money would be changing hands.

 

[furwise]

Caryn, does that rule out a family member receiving the coat as part of their inheritance? It doesn't sound like any money would be changing hands.

Providing it was legally obtained when previously purchased, it would be perfectly okay to pass along to a family member or friend as long as it was not commercially traded or exchanged for profit.

 

[kittysfish]

Thank you all for your effort to help! It is thoughtful & appreciated. I am sorry this reply comes late.

First, Donna @The Vintage Vendeuse, thank you for posting the exact rule! I think I got so myopic on "do not post a personal site or anything you personally have for sale" (my summary) that I missed or forgot the intent - any links & anything for sale is not allowed for guests, even if the link is to illustrate a fur type, not to endorse the sale. I appreciate the correction.

Second, thank you @furwise for your succinct summary. Unfortunately, yes, if this coat was created pre-ESA in the late 40s or early 50s, when - as far as I can find - it appears to have been legal to import Chinese Leopard Cat fur (just as it's still legal in Japan today, minimally protected under CITES II), a) I don't see a good reason for it to be Lippi cat instead of Leopard Cat :(, b) it wouldn't have had any documentation (because protections simply weren't in place), & c) both a & b would restrict it from interstate commerce (however, not sale within the state, which would be allowed, though that wouldn't work for any of my family since all live out of state).

Third, @MagsRags, yes!, that would be fully right for a normal estate, but this is unfortunately complicated, because although the estate is small, when my uncle died unexpectedly, without a will, and with some medical bills that needed payment first, the probate process required that his effects be sold to ensure debt settlement, with anything left to be divided among heirs. This means family are trying to buy mementos of value to them from the estate, rather than being given them as an inheritance. Under his state's laws, there is a minimum distribution to heirs first, and if items like this coat are un-saleable (as above), we will try to pursue a non-monetary in-kind distribution, if possible. The executor has been unpredictable, and this has been a long & sad process, so I had wanted to find truth re: items like this coat, but hoped the answer might be simpler & more hopeful than it has been.

Again, thank you all for your input & time

Watching for God to use this all for good,
Hollie

 

[kittysfish]

Rereading that above, I may not have been clear - the link that was removed was not anything I had for sale, but it was a fur coat commercially available that I was trying to use as a reference for the fur type of the coat I was asking about. I had explicitly put that I was not endorsing it for sale, but missed that any commercial links & for sale (even not being endorsed by a guest) were verboten - thank you for pointing that out, Donna.

 

[kittysfish]

Apologies - one last question.
For @furwise - I have searched, and not found the timeline for the origin of "Lippi" cat fur. Since I've only run across named Lippi fur in post-ESA pieces so far, I've started to wonder if it was specially bred to circumvent the ESA, while developing a fur that would mimic the Leopard Cat in all its markings. (From what I've read, Lippi as sold in the US post-ESA is the 4th+ generation cross of Leopard Cats + domestic cats to make them legal for fur, & anyone going to that breeding effort didn't make sense to me pre-ESA when it looked like the cat furs like true Leopard Cat were actually still legal). Have you found "Lippi" (the cross, not the true Chinese Leopard Cat) in any pre-1975 pieces you've come across, or know the timeline for the development of that Lippi? ("Nope" is just fine!)