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  1. peaceful vintage

    peaceful vintage Administrator Staff Member

    No, no. I am not saying his name would not be on a label in 1964. I am saying that I think the label may have been different because it was Bernat Klein Limited and he did not solely own it but maybe the label did just say Bernat Klein. I guess he wouldn't have had to use the same label for his new company either or maybe he did.
     
  2. Retro Ruth

    Retro Ruth Administrator Staff Member

    But what makes you think this label is from that post 1966 period, rather than the Bernat Klein Limited company he left before then?

    ETA: I see no reason why this can't be from the 1962-1966 period. Especially when combined with that early Woolmark label.
     
  3. Retro Ruth

    Retro Ruth Administrator Staff Member

    Limited is just an indicator of what kind of company it is - it's like Inc. It's not something that would usually appear on a fashion label. So if the company is called Bernat Klein Limited, it's likely that the labels would just say Bernat Klein.
     
  4. peaceful vintage

    peaceful vintage Administrator Staff Member

    No. You're right. Bernat Klein Limited could have made this label sometime from 62-66 for coats with his wool. This label may or may not even be the label Bernat used for his business created in 1966.
     
  5. Retro Ruth

    Retro Ruth Administrator Staff Member

    You are right that it was probably a different label for the two companies - I expect he would have changed it when he formed the later company. But the style of the coat and the woolmark label means I think this is more likely from the pre-1966 Bernat Klein Limited company.

    Interesting discussion anyway!
     
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  6. peaceful vintage

    peaceful vintage Administrator Staff Member

    Yes, some sources say that he provided his wools to couture designers before he established Bernat Klein but with that new information that I provided from his bibliography it shows that between 1962-1966 his fabric was sold to outlets, Marks & Spencer's, and others so it would make sense that his fabric would have been sold to Cotsmoor during that time too.

    I agree. Good discussion. All in the spirit of learning, sharing, and discussing this beautiful vintage coat made from Bernat Klein's fine wool. :)
     
    Retro Ruth likes this.
  7. tickeryboo

    tickeryboo Alumni

    just one last thing, and i only just realised this, we are forgetting that there must have been, no there definately was, a market for the older more conservative ladies, clothes weren't only made for the fine young things of the day. not everything would have been shorter lengths and from what i can remember of Marshall and Snelgrove, they did cater for the older more conservative lady, it was that sort of store. fashions are so different now with all ages shopping from the same stores, and wearing the same designs but it wasn't like it back then, "in the olden days" as my son says!

    lorraine
     
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  8. foofoogal

    foofoogal Registered Guest

    What a lovely coat. I think of a vintage ad of a lady getting out of a cab with her arms full of Christmas packages.
    So pretty.
     
  9. peaceful vintage

    peaceful vintage Administrator Staff Member

    I just wanted to show what I found. The designer was Nina Ricci but the wool was Bernat Klein, the Woolmark Company is noted, and the date of the photo was 1964.

    Screen Shot 2013-12-13 at 9.31.27 PM.png
    Screen Shot 2013-12-13 at 9.31.48 PM.png
     
  10. Pinkcoke

    Pinkcoke Alumni

    Great Sleuthing Caryn! The University/college websites really do collect the best data sometimes. The coat on that photo looks longer, how long is your coat TreasureSeeker?
     
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  11. Retro Ruth

    Retro Ruth Administrator Staff Member

    That's my Uni! Though I didn't go the College of Fashion.

    That coat is made of his velvet tweed, which I've been reading about - it was an innovation of Bernat Klein's, combining tweed with velvet ribbon. They were launched in 1964. This pdf gives a great deal of history of Bernat Klein, and the velvet tweed is talked about on page 54/55 (page 5/6 in the pdf) - it mentions Nina Ricci and several other designers.

    http://www.zjff.net:81/files/20130809/1376009334714_2.pdf

    It also says in 1963 he launched his a range of knitting wool and patterns, with matching fabric for a skirt, to give 'ordinary' people the chance to get the Bernat Klein look by making their own. It says "supplied Bernat Klein branded labels to attach to the hand-made garment, allowing them to buy into the brand".

    So there was definitely a Bernat Klein brand for fabric before 1966.
     
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  12. Retro Ruth

    Retro Ruth Administrator Staff Member

    I also found out that Bernat Klein Limited, the company he resigned from, was renamed Gibson & Lumgair in 1968.

    http://archiveshub.ac.uk/data/gb582-hwuagl

    I could imagine there was an issue, maybe even some legal wrangling, about him being able to take his own name away with him when he resigned. But for two years Bernat Klein Limited continued under his name without him.
     
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  13. peaceful vintage

    peaceful vintage Administrator Staff Member

    Yes, I had read that as well yesterday which is why I thought the labels from Bernat Klein Limited and Bernat Klein must have been different at least between 66 and 68 when both companies existed at the same time. The only label I have seen other than the label shown for this wool coat though was the 80s label which also says Bernat Klein. It could have been decided that he was going to get to go on using his name when Bernat Klein Limited changed their name but what label did Bernat Klein Limited use prior to the switch being made during that transition? Could both companies have been using Bernat Klein labels? It might not have made a difference in regards to the wool used for if this coat does if it dates to 1964 because it would have been made before Bernat Klein resigned from Bernat Klein Limited.
     
  14. Retro Ruth

    Retro Ruth Administrator Staff Member

    I expect they were - or perhaps Bernat Klein didn't immediately make clothing labels after 66 - according to that PDF, the company he set up on his own was a design consultancy at least to begin with, and some of his first commissions were to design rugs and upholstery fabrics.

    It also says that many designers used his fabric without necessarily attributing the fabric to him, especially in the US, so labels wouldn't have been used. See page 66.

    The UK IPO site is down for maintenance, but when it's up again I'll do a trademark search and see what that tells us.
     
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  15. peaceful vintage

    peaceful vintage Administrator Staff Member

    Awesome. I suppose they could have had more than one label too. I wonder if there was a Gibson & Lumgair label out there prior to the Bernat Klein Limited company name being changed.
     
  16. Retro Ruth

    Retro Ruth Administrator Staff Member

    So I looked at the trademark history for Bernat Klein

    Two trademarks for that name were filed in 1967 - one for clothing, and one for rugs and floor coverings. The owners name is given as name Bernat Klein, High Sunderland, Galashiels, United Kingdom. I'm fairly sure this must be the man himself, rather than the company he'd left the year before. It looks as though the older company Bernat Klein Limited didn't file 'Bernat Klein' as a trademark, but it's interesting that Bernat Klein himself didn't file a trademark for fabrics in 1967, just rugs and clothing, perhaps because that would be in conflict with his former company Bernat Klein Limited.

    The old Bernat Klein Limited did file two trademarks in 1962, but they were images only and not related to the Bernat Klein name.

    To matters more confusing it looks as though Bernat Klein did also start a company in 1969 called Bernat Klein Limited, so after the previous Bernat Klein Limited had changed their name. The company he started in 1966 was called Bernat Klein Design Limited - both companies have the same address as their Registered Address

    http://ukdata.com/company/results?_includeDissolved=&includeDissolved=on&search=Search&name=bernat klein&countryCode=GB&reset=true&postcode=
     
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  17. peaceful vintage

    peaceful vintage Administrator Staff Member

    Wow, very interesting. If I had to guess I would guess that when Bernat started his company Bernat Klein Design Limited he did so because he probably wanted to use his name but neither he nor the still existing Bernat Klein Limited wanted to be associated as being the same company. Then after, when his old partnership company Bernat Klein Limited changed their name to Gibson & Lugmair in 1968 it allowed Bernat to rename his company from Bernat Klein Design Limited to the original name Bernat Klein Limited in 1969 as the name was no longer being used.
     
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  18. Great research ladies.

    I agree with Ruth on a circa '64-65 date although Lorraine is right about this possibly being a conservative style for an older lady made in the late '60s to early '70s - traces of the modern age tend to seep through in those cases though, and all the style and fabric elements suggest a mid '60s date to me.
     
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  19. I just found this thread when searching for information on Cotsmoor, as I have a coat that I believe to be late '50s to early '60s - it's wonderful quality. Here it is:

    circa_vintage_webshop_july_2014_250.jpg
    And wanted to add that I agree with Lorraine - and to prove it here is a coat that I dated as early '60s but the labels (which I have yet to add to the listing) prove it to be '70s - it does have a sizeable collar but not the sort we generally associate with this era. circa_vintage_webshop_july_2014_247_0.jpg

     
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