Help with this gown? Last UPDATE

With apologies for the rough photos, as the gown came right out of the trunk and onto the mannequin.

I am usually able to get the approximate era of antique dresses, but the ball gowns always confound me.

The bodice is silk and the tulle/net is embellished with a heavy metal thread. The pannier effect may be due to the hoops having been flattened in the trunk for who-knows-how-may years. So, am I looking at an 1860s dress? Later?

Thanks.

 

what a find!!! I am so jealous...

cant help but wanted to say such!... I love it and lucky you!!

 

Thank you for the enthusiasm, but there is no need to be jealous. It is an interesting dress, but there are small areas of shattered silk and the added weight of the metal threads make it very fragile, so it will likely have to go into an (archival) box and, thus, not be enjoyed much after tonight.

I meant to post this picture of the inside of the bodice, to share the padded bust.

 

Mary Jane,

I am sorry that I am asking something that is difficult to answer with only photos, but I can reassure you that the gown is decidedly antique. I have a number of antique dresses here and am quite confident that this is quite old, but, as I noted, the ball gowns always seem timeless and I have a terrible time dating them.

I really appreciate your help!

 

The style is late 1860's. The bodice is sleeveless and because of the the shoulder straps. Is the padding lambswool? And the boning - probably steel? I would like to see the hoop it came with if possible and a real close-up of stitching.

 

Lynne, I agree that it's quite old but there are some conflicting aspects. The style looks to be mid 19th century but if that's a set of panniers under the skirt, not a crinoline I'm wondering if it's '20s-'30s?

The bodice looks Victorian though: is it machine or hand sewn? I think what you have may be a Victorian dress that's been altered for a costume ball, perhaps in the '20s. Panniers really weren't worn during the 19th century, and the dress is not earlier than that.

Nicole

 

Restored with new guts? Or could it be a Gone with the Wind inspired costume/fashion that was made later?

 

My quick impression is that it is, as the others have said, a gown that has been altered at a later date. The 20s make sense with the panniers. Also in the 20s and 30s there was an interest in revival style re enactments. Think of the Wallace Nutting photos depicting the 18th century. There were also fancy dress balls that were held in the 18th century style. I think what you have may have been earlier and altered for one of these events. The embroidery also seems to fit the same era as the panniers, both in colors and style.

I'm not so good at explaining the why of what I'm saying as perhaps Hollis and Jonathan, but I'm pretty sure that's close.

 

I agree that it's a 1920s 'robe du style' - 18th century style dress with panniers. I would think 1923ish, when the hems are quite long. It could be an evening dress, fancy dress for a costume party, or a bridesmaid dress. I don' t think it's been remade - the applique on net is very popular in the 1920s/30s and metallic net and lace is also typically 1920s.

 

Thank you all so much for the explanation that clarified why this gown so confused me. I dug out everything in the trunk last night and some of what I found underscores what you all surmised (see photos). What still suprises--and confused--me is that I have a collection of gowns as far back as the 1830s and the construction of these gowns is almost identical to that of the old gowns. I will post here photos of what else I found:

Here are two photos of the hoops under the metallic gown. Now I see that the reason for the pannier effect is the ties...


and the padded bust. I don't know what the padding is, but is is very soft...


Here is a silk, gold gown in the trunk (apologies for the trunk-to-mannequin wrinkles)...


and a bag of the bodice stiffeners (but they seem to be of a plastic material)...


Here is a nurse's uniform (complete with blood spots!) that has a very early Bloomingdale's label...


But the one that clinched the costume theory for me was this gold lame' hat that has matching gold pants...


Many thanks!

 

the plastic bones look like whalebone to me... and the nurse's uniform looks WW1 or earlier to me - a rare find.

 

Might the stays be whalebone? They would have cut or sawn edges and tips,not molded.

Hollis

 

Typically some crinoline cages when not in use would be 'folded' like a concertina and the ties are used to wrap around the compacted cane/metal hoops. You need to untie the crinoline to see the form and it's likely to be a bell shape. The style of the dress is Victorian 19th Century not 18th. If the crinoline cage is in the shape of a pannier from the 18th Century then you have a hybrid. Good reference on crinoline cages;

http://www.victoriana.com/Victorian-Fashion/crinoline.htm

I think it is later and probably a 1920's reproduction.

The other dress is a bit confusing - not sure what's going on with the styles.

 

When I frist saw it I thought 20s/30s costume.

 

I decided to subject the stays to a hi-res scan and I see striations that suggest some animal product. I have never seen a whalebone anything, but don't the striations indicate a bone product?

Thanks.

 

Perhaps there is some precious ambergris in the trunk too? Just incredible and fascinating finds, Lynne! Thank you for sharing them with us.
(The way the padding looks, is the way lambswool softly puffs.)

 

The boning looks like baleen - technically not whalebone. Great picture. There's a lot of reference on baleen and what it was used for - including corsets and bodices;

'Baleen is somewhat of an intermediary material between horn and hair, made up of many parallel hair fibers encased in hard enamel. Each baleen plate is about 10 in (25.4 cm) wide and 9-13 ft (2.74-3.96 m) long. Baleen can split along the parallel fibers and—when softened by steam—is easily shaped. Once dry, it holds its shape proving to be an enormously useful material for corset-making. Over-fishing led to the demise of baleen whale populations, and corset makers were driven to find substitute materials. They used cane or steel, and later plastic. The corset maker inserted thin slivers of whalebone into the corset to hold its shape. Whalebone was also used in some corsets for a front piece called the busk. The busk gave a smooth line to the front of the corset and was also sometimes made of wood, horn, or steel.' ref; http://www.enotes.com/how-products-encyclopedia/corset

I think there's a natural glue which bonds the thin slivers.

Now I'm more curious about the second dress. So there is boning in the bodice of the dress? Difficult to tell from the side angle.

 

I wouldn't hv been able to stop shaking if I'd opened a trunk like that! Really enjoyed reading all the threads & learning. Beautiful beautiful gowns...want, want, want, sigh. They do look like bees or wasps on that last gown, totally divine.