is this burgundy velvet bow hat 30-50s?

Pinkcoke

Pinkcoke

Alumni
Couldn't decide which way round this is supposed to be worn, I think we finally decided to go with the lining tape's seam at back which puts most of the hat tilted back and to the left with the bow on top at the front. (sorry I know this means it is the wrong way up now in the pictures!)
I *think* this is earlier rather than later in the 30-50s timescale. I have some adverts which include similar shape and styled winter hats in the 30s (nothing with this sort of bow however) but wanted to know your thoughts.
The colour is much darker than these photos btw I'd say it's deep burgundy. The embellishment/ring is quite interesting, it's a very bright metal, one plain ring under a coiled one they're welded together but very carefully so you can hardly see.
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Hi,

You are 100% right about it having a 1930's shape to it. However, I do think it is from the 1950's, based on the fine velour felt used (at least it looks like fur felt and not wool?) and the jeweled embellishment looks later than 1950 also. I would skip over the 1940's on this hat, at least until post 1948.

It has a very French appeal. Also, try tilting it down on the right, and not down on the left, as that seems more correct.

B
 
Sorry, yes I meant right but got confused looking at photos!

I don't know how to tell if it's fur or wool felt but maybe you can work it out as there is some damage (only just visible on the first photo, under the right bow tip) where the pile has been lost we think due to wear where it was handled (it is exactly where i would pick up the hat between thumb and fingers, or where a hat pin has been repeatedly used) this has bobbled slightly on the bare patch.

Is there a test for fur/wool felt?

Also do you know how smoothed or creased it is supposed to be? the crown can be 'inflated' a lot more than it is at the moment, this seems to be where the creases have fallen in wear.

50's would make sense, as this came from the same 100 yr old lady's house as the D'orsay sandals and 50's clarks shoes.
 
Hi Pinkcoke -- First off, I'm no expert, but have been handling a lot of hats and doing a lot of research of late. You can tell fur felt from wool by taking a close look at it. See if you see short little straight hairs, all matted together. If so, it's fur felt, not wool. Also, it tends to be a bit softer than wool (excepting cashmere -- but then with cashmere you see the long fibers), in my limited experience. Fur felt is made from the undercoat of various animals, as opposed to the longer top hairs. But you can still see the hairs if you look closely. And they're not curly fibers like wool.

I also know a way to get little moth nibbles to be less evident (practically disappear, really, depending on the depth, the color, etc.). You take a nice sharp needle or pin, and looking through a magnifying glass (or maybe that's just me with my aging eyes!), you gently pick at the indented part, just a few fibers at a time and not too deeply. This raises up some of the topmost remaining hairs, and makes the surface even again. It works very well, but be slow and careful so as not to do more harm than good. Works on nearly any wool or felt with moth nibbles (as opposed to actual holes, in which case, darning is the only "fix"). Can really make a huge difference. Would always disclose this, of course.
 
Pinkcoke, I have a recommendation about your hat, that you freeze it for a while.

I find that these hats almost always have moths in them, and as yours already has moth damage (and from the photos, I think I can see some moth eggs too but I can't be sure as it's not a close up) it's best not to take the risk.

Nicole
 
Great advice from Nicole about freezing it for a while.

Fine sandpaper can also work on the very shallow moth ruts and nibbles, but you have to be careful and use a very light hand.

Some of what Liza said about telling wool felt from fur felt is basically true, but most of what she said is not really on target or always the case. (sorry Liza) There are many types of fur felts and they certainly do not all look alike or feel alike. It is true that fur felt is much softer than wool. Some fur felt is even much softer than cashmere too. Some specially treated wool felts are almost as soft as some fur felts. There were dozens and dozens of types of felts used for hats at one time. Looking at just the lay of the hairs can be misleading. Over time (a lot of time and a lot of different hats) you will just learn to see, and feel the differences. That is the only way...to see all the different types and eventually you will just know.

B
 
Like I said... just one potential indicator, not a foolproof or sole method.

So far I've been on target with the ones I've had here (helpfully, many have been labeled, so offered "evidence" for study), but I tend not to ever be 100% confident without a label.

SO... when I have doubts about types of fur (or other animal materials), I go see a local old-school furrier. He's been around long enough to have seen it all : ). Must be 105...
 
LizaJane, the elongated bits - moth eggs appear in fine white fluffy stuff, it's a bit like fine cotton wool. I think I can see it on the bow in photo 1 (about the middle of the pic) and in photo 4 at the bottom, although either could easily be a moth larvae munching away. I usually remove all bits like that with a damp cloth or my fingers (wash carefully afterwards) and then freeze the hat. You can also steam it but I'm not convinced that will kill the eggs.

It's hot in Australia and we have big problems with moths. I find them all the time and they horrify me.

Nicole
 
hmm, the one in the first pic is no longer there so I think that was either a 'fluff' or something on the camera but the picture four mark is definetly resembling the feeding situation you described...now totally grossed out! I removed the white with my finger and there is indeed a bare patch underneath. So will definetly freeze.

It has been unusually warm for a British summer here recently but I intrigued as to why you call these things 'moths' My understanding of a moth is the night living butterfly like insects you get attracted to the lights...how do they relate to these microscopic larve?
 
There are lots of kinds of moths, not just the ones that fly into your lights, and they all lay eggs. Nicole is talking about clothes moths larvae which feed mostly on animal fibres in clothes, especially wool and silk, but also leather and feathers, and sometimes even non-animal fibres like cotton. The adult flying moths, which are considerably smaller than your average night moth, lay their eggs on the clothes, and larvae hatch and eat the fabric. Freezing kills them, fortunately.
 
Thankyou GoldenAge that makes it a lot clearer!

How long would you normally freeze something for? My mum suggested 24hrs but I don't want to risk things like the embellishment breaking when I take it out.
 
I've heard different recommendations, but at least a week, I think. I don't think you need to worry about anything breaking. Maybe others have an idea of how long it takes to kill the eggs - I've never got a definitive answer to that one.
 
Hi,

Just be sure to place the item in a sealed plastic bag to keep out moisture and odors while it is in the freezer. I keep mine in for 3-4 days, but others suggest longer. When you do take out the plastic bag from the freezer, be sure to open it up and remove the item from the bag, so condensation does not occur and dampen the item.

B
 
I've heard differing opinions on how long you should freeze but I go for at least a week, and two if I can.

Golden Age, thank you for your elaboration about the moths. They're small and tend to hop rather than fly, they look like small bits of twig or leaves, have a pale brown colour. You can see a photo at the Wikipedia entry.

As GA said, it's the larvae that do the damage - as they work, they surround themselves with a small fluffy casing (what you can probably see in the photo above). The colour of the casing starts off white, but if they get enough time to eat it will start to take on the colour of whatever they're eating, so a well fed moth on your hat may have a pinkish casing. As you've noticed, they eat the fabric below, so if you remove one of the casings and find an eaten bit that corresponds in shape, it's a good indication that you have a moth.

The moths themselves when they hatch don't live long, just to mate and die - they don't eat anything. But the eggs and when they hatch, the larvae, can be devastating. I've seen hundreds of them all lined up along a garment, they can make very big holes when there are a lot of them.

Last year I took a lot of photos of moth larvae at work to write a blog post but they creep me out too - I haven't blogged about it yet because I don't want them on my lovely blog! But most of us learn about them the hard way, and knowing what they look like makes it much easier to identify issues. You're lucky in the UK, you don't get many bugs like we do here.

Nicole
 
IIRC the latest recommendation is to freeze the item, then take it out for a while (don't know how long), then refreeze it. I believe the reason is that freezing alone doesn't kill the larvae/eggs, because they can overwinter through freezing temps ordinarily, but if you freeze, then thaw, they start the hatching process or something, so you freeze them again right away to kill them when they are less protected. I will see if I can find information about that.
 
I will look for the information on a more professional conservation site, but this came from a biologist, in response to a similar question:

"Could be a number of species. Give the fabric a good wash, then stuff the dried fabric in the freezer in a sealed plastic bag for about 3 days (or if you're in an area that gets cold enough, stick it in the trunk of your car for a few weeks). Thaw in the closed plastic bag, and let set at room temperature for about a week, then refreeze for another 3 days. This is a fairly standard museum method for dis-infesting all sorts of things. The thaw-then-refreeze portion gets any surviving eggs that hatch and kills them on the second freeze.

Source(s): old biologist who's sewn for 50 years.
 
This conservation document notes that:

"Repeat cooling was used from the 1890s to 1930s when freezers did not normally operate below -10 degrees C to -15 degrees C (Strang 1992). In practice, a second cooling is often unnecessary if lower temperatures are used. However, this step re-exposes any resistant insects to freezing and should kill them.

I believe the reason we were told to do a second freeze is because of the nature of the freezers we were using--not likely to get down to -15 degrees.
 
hmm I could always ask my mum to take it into the university lab's deep freezers! (nobody uses them over the summer!)
 
A normal freezer should be fine Pinkcoke - it works just fine for the rest of us!

Another option is to dry clean it - that sucks all the moisture out and kills them too.

Nicole
 
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