Victorian? I Cannot Tell!

Thanks guys! I wish I could say they were moth munch free, each has a few but very very few indeed. That 2nd jacket has an incredible printed silk lining....wish I had the pic w/ me here at home but its on my laptop. I can get a close up of the seam tomorrow on that 1st one. Both are in superb wearable condition! Wish I could say I found them but they are a consignment from a theatre....I cannot believe the stuff that gets donated to those places!! I need to open a theatre just to get that kind of killer, older stuff....!

Ang

 

It looks like the seam edges might be bias bound with another thinner fabric on the inside? Then the seam allowances are held in place with topstitching, which gives a decorative finish to the outside of the jacket as well.

Ang, can you tell if the plaid is a separate fabric from the outer wool? Or is this a double faced wool, which is two fabrics woven together.

 

Ah, I'll have to look tomorrow, not sure!

Ang

 

that 2nd one is also 2-die-4, and yes, so Dr. Zhivago, Russian Revolution looking. Something Geraldine Chaplin would've worn in that film. Simply yummy.

 

Jody is right - it may be bound edges, too. Hard to tell from photos. that's why I never appraise from a photo - got to hold the garment in my hand!

But yes, the seam allowances are held down by the topstitching, which makes the seams in a heavy fabric lay smoother as well as neatening the interior.

Hollis

 

I was just going to say it was double-faced wool.
The buttons are probably horn, and original.

The second jacket has a real Ballet Russes, Leon Bakst look to it. I see it with a hobble skirt, giant fur muff, and huge toque hat with an aigrette up front. Very smart.

 

I think the jacket is a costume reproduction and not original. The wool and the contrasting check fabric look modern as does the tailoring. The top stitching on the check fabric on the labels is also a modern aplication as are the buttonholes. The coat is also reproduction.

What's the provenance?

 

Really????? They look right to me....I've had a traveling suit with a very similar jacket to #1 that I'm sure was real. The fabric was a hard wool....double-woven wool melton? comes to mind...

 

It's interesting to try and ascertain whether a piece is original from a photo. My reasoning comes from my experience working for film and theatrical costumiers and having handled hundreds of costumes including reproductions so I get a feel for these things. I could be wrong and will be happy to admit my error of judgment but I think these two items are also in remarkably good condition for the period if they are original.

 

I'll be happy to accede to your superior expertise...I've had VERY limited experience with real professional costumers.

 

That's a kind comment Maryalice, thank you. I wouldn't claim to have superior expertise ... just experience with period costume.

 

Thank you for your kind comment Maryalice. I wouldn't claim to have superior expertise ... just experience with original and reproduction period clothes.

 

oops ... but not with refreshing the screen! Hmm...my reply didn't show up before which is why re-wrote.

 

These are both definitely older....having handled 100 year old pieces vs newer textiles there is a very definite differennce in the feel of them. These were recently donated to a theatre I consign for from a woman cleaning out storage for a deceased family member and the theatre is A) rarely using pieces with this kind of look anymore and B) trying to preserve pieces this old by not using them in the kinds of conditions stage wear can create.

As stated, they are not perfect and do have a few moth holes.

Ang

 

Ang,
When you take pix, I would also like to see the buttonhole. It will be a thread handmade if period.

Also, details of the seam joining the plaid on the lapels, the gorge line, and notch. Is the plaid on the collar simply the "wrong" side of double cloth? Is it seamed to the camel or is the camel turned under and topstitched where they join? The thicknesses of the two sections will probably reveal the answers. Claire

 

Here are some additional pics I just took, buttonholes appear hand done....



Button



Seaming





The lapels are the "wrong" side of a doublecloth, in a few places on the lapel there are wee moth chomps and you can see the solid color but there is no space between them, as if bonded somehow. The lapel itself where it comes into the front of the jacket has a heavy coarse cotton lining within (a few loose stiches I pulled apart a little to see in), so thusly it appears as though that stiffened cotton is within the entire front as structural effect for the lapels to be more rigid than the rest of the jacket. There are also teeny MOP buttons behind each button on the front so using the buttons doesn't pull thread against the textile (hope that makes sense).

Here is the jacket buttoned shut.



Ang

 

I love it, how beautifully tailored it is. If only I had a 23 inch waist. Sigh.

I'm definitely no expert but it looks like a lot of amazing detailed work just for a costume reproduction.

 

Here's the fantastic silk print inside the other coat.......



Ang

 

Oh man! You just get the best stuff!

 

Those are bound seam allowances. The lapels and fronts would be stiffened.

That wild lining is typical of Teens suits - it's one of my favorite things about them.

Is there a skirt to go with the Teens jacket?

About costumes - they are generally made with the techniques popular at the time of construciton rather than techniques from the era of the clothing. And in fabrics available at the time of construction rather than the period being recreated.
That is a generalisation, of course. Some costumes are very high quality and would pass for period pieces. Others, definitely not. Today, some shops such as Opera or rental shops will build with certain techniques specifically to allow the costumes to tbe altered. Other will build for long runs with techniques intended to make the costumes sturdy and long wearing. While most shops cannot afford tons of hand finishing and hand sewn decorative techniques, others use couture finishing when budgets allow.

For example, a good professional costume shop of the 20s - 40s might well still bind seam allowance edges. Today, most shops use sergers to neaten those raw edges as budgets don't allow for the labor to do so. Or they would line the jacket with an inexpensive slick lining fabric as a quicker way to neaten the inside and to help the actress get the jacket on/off more easily.

Hollis




Hollis